User talk:Toughpigs

Unfinished Business
I just realized that Inner Tube never aired. Should Crasher and company be recategorized, or does the fact that a brief clip was used in The World of Jim Henson (and possibly elsewhere, I don't know) place them outside of Unfinished Characters? --Andrew, Aleal 01:30, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Are they in Muppet Characters? No, those are definitely Unfinished. -- Danny Toughpigs 01:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Bunny Picnic Puppets
I'm sorry Danny. I wasn't sure if you would want four different pictures on the article page, so I created the pages for each puppet to show the actual toy. I shoulda posed the question first. I've just been a bunch of work for you guys today. --Nate Radionate 00:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it's no problem, baby. I'm glad you posted those pictures, they're cool! I've never seen a picture of the Father Bunny puppet before. I looked at the different pages, and I saw that they were essentially the same text, so I figured we might as well combine them into one. But it wasn't extra work or anything. That's the fun part of working on the wiki -- seeing what other people are adding, and changing stuff, and building on it. You've been lovely today, as you are every day. -- Danny Toughpigs 01:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed! You do such good work, we could just osculate you! --Andrew, Aleal 01:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know who posted the pictures of the twitch and bean puppets, but the father I snagged off ebay last year for just a song! I've only seen one other before on ebay.  And now I have to find a picture of Grandmother Bunny! --Nate  Radionate 01:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I have Grandmother Bunny... I'll take a picture of mine! -- Danny Toughpigs 01:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

MuppetFest
Hey, the pictures are adding a lot to the MuppetFest pages. They might be better if they're spread throughout, though. It's kind of crazy text-heavy. Anyway, I don't know squat about MuppetFest, so I don't really want to edit the page, but do the pictures correlate to specific panels? --Peter Pantalones 15:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm moving them around. I wanted a couple pictures at the top to give a flavor of the panels, but three was too many, so I put Jerry's down to the next heading. I'm adding more pictures -- I'm saving the page as I go, to see how it looks. I could do a preview instead, but what fun would that be? -- Danny Toughpigs 15:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Unfinished Characters
Sorry, I hadn't realized you were moving the The Wizard of Id characters. Should they be cross-listed as unfinished characters and Muppet characters, though, as distinct from The Cat and Haviland P. Squill who were never built, or like The Primitives were built and never used (and actually, the recent discovery that a few of them were used in one TV appearance made me wonder a bit, but on the whole I think they still qualify as unfinished)? I wish there was a way to get images from that pilot. The King especially looked neat. --Andrew, Aleal 03:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No, characters from Unfinished Shows go in Unfinished Characters. Basically, the whole "Unfinished" category is for stuff that didn't make it to public view. It includes all levels of development, from a completed pilot to a script treatment to a random phrase that doesn't mean anything but you announce it in a major press release anyway. (See: Kermit's Christmas Capers.) So the Wizard guys don't get to be Muppet Characters, although I do agree that they looked cool. -- Danny Toughpigs 04:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That feels like discrimination to me, but I'll accept it. In that case, though, should Puppetman be removed from unfinished projects, or else its characters recategorized? As a series, it's unfinished, but as a pilot one-shot special, it aired (reviews singled out Richard Hunt, by the way). --Andrew, Aleal 04:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No, Puppetman is cool, because it aired on TV. It's kind of in the same area as Little Muppet Monsters, actually! -- Danny Toughpigs 04:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * But we don't list Little Muppet Monsters as unfinished, and Puppetman is. Though I suppose like the other categories, it doesn't have to be a hard and fast rule, and I guess we can have exceptions that we list as unfinished but aren't the same degree of unfinishedness. Or maybe we can make it a subcategory of audio characters. --Andrew, Aleal 04:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ha. I didn't realize that Puppetman was just listed as Unfinished, I thought it was cross-listed as a special or something. I think it deserves a listing in Specials, because that's how it aired. I'd put it in both Specials and Unfinished TV Shows, and then list the characters as both Specials and Unfinished Characters. -- Danny Toughpigs 04:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it's cross-listed in pilots and pitches, but so is Wizard of Id. It aired as part of a summer anthology which basically was nothing but pilots that hadn't been picked up, but which CBS thought were cool enough they deserved to be seen anyway (or it was cheaper than commissioning something new, who knows). But yeah, specials works for me. Also makes it easier to classify the actors (I eventually want to make pages for them all), as I kept debating whether they should be under Henson TV Actors or Muppet Specials Actors. --Andrew, Aleal 04:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, different issue, but speaking of recategorizing, I'm thinking we could do with a "Celebrity References" category. I noticed you moved Shakespeare out of celebrities to spoofs, noting that celebrities is now only for those who had direct Muppet contact. That works for because of the clay Muppet bust. But what about some of the others? I recategorized Lewis Carroll to writers, since Alice in Wonderland is already listed under spoofs and the use of his writings and personal history in Dreamchild is hardly a spoof. Plus there's Henry Kissinger, who never appeared in a production but definitely has a strong and amusing connection. I've also been wanting to make a Fran Allison page, both because Scred adored her before his fickle heart moved on to Lily Tomlin and because she's connected to Burr Tillstrom who's then connected to Don Sahlin. Also, where would Stan Freberg go or should he go, if I decided to create a page on him? (He's been cited as a stylistic improvement, at least two surviving Sam and Friends skits use his voice and recordings, and his career path actually has some interesting parallels to Henson, especially since both produced bizarre ads for Esskay Meats; while Jim's involved Muppet cruelty, Stan had a session drummer being forced by the Esskay heads to use weenies for drumsticks). I'm probably not going to make either a Fran or Stan page just yet, but I'd like to know where to put them if/when I do. --Andrew, Aleal 04:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, let me see. Celebrities has always been for people with direct Muppet contact; that's the point of that category. Lewis Carroll shouldn't be in Writers -- that's for people who have written scripts for the Muppets. I think both of those categories are defined at the top of the category pages.


 * References and Spoofs are weird categories, but this is how it works: References is for stuff that talks about the Muppets; Spoofs is for stuff that the Muppets talk about. So Shakespeare and Carroll belong in Spoofs, because the Muppets have made tons of references to their works. They're not really spoofing William Shakespeare per se, but they've done Muppet versions of Hamlet and Much Ado About Nothing on Monsterpiece Theater, and Romeo and Juliet on Muppets Tonight. Ditto with Carroll and Alice in Wonderland.


 * As for Fran and Stan, I think the most logical place for them is Non-Muppet Productions. The text for that category says: "These shows are not Muppet productions, but they share many similarities from a production standpoint." That's pretty vague, so you could add some more if you wanted to justify why Fran and Stan belong there. You should also see the similar Puppeteers category.


 * Henry Kissinger, I dunno. I'm tempted to just put him in Celebrities and let people wonder. -- Danny Toughpigs 04:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Listing Fran as a non Muppet production amuses me inordinately, but I don't think that would work, and she wasn't a puppeteer. She was a hostess who worked with puppets who Henson chose to namedrop in a "Land of Gorch" sketch. I guess I'll continue holding off on Fran (Stan could safely go in puppeteers, though, true; actually, "Time for Beany" could use a page too. I think it was Scott or someone who suggested that a general puppetry wiki would be a better place for that stuff, but I doubt there could be one with enough to support it that doesn't duplicate our stuff, and if Miss Peach of the Kelly School gets a page, why not Beany, which was a pioneer in TV puppet shows and almost certainly an indirect influence to at least some extent.) --Andrew, Aleal 05:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * And as long as we're doing celeb clean-up, I've created Muppet Magazine Guests, as suggested by Scott. I've already removed Ed Leitner and his contest buddies from celebs. Did a few of the Fame folks but I'm on the fence on them, since however obscure now, they were legitimate celebrities in 1983, as opposed to Jon Richards. There's more to be moved later, plus it's also a useful cross reference as I noticed the Flying Karamazovs and wondered what they did with the Muppets, and realized it was just a photo spread. -- Andrew, Aleal 05:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This thing is getting all windy, but another grey area, Russell Crowe. I guess his lack of Muppet contact is almost sufficient, but I dunno, especially since as you reminded me, the category stresses direct interaction or involvement in a Muppet or Henson production, though the means of that interaction is flexible. In that case, should I create a page for Sigourney Weaver? (As a child actress, she applied to CTW for Sesame Street; she was rejected, but her resume and files are still in the archives, now held in the University of Maryland). Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think both Crowe and Weaver would be better off in a "Behind the Scenes" page on actors who tried to but couldn't get on Sesame. --Andrew, Aleal 05:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

To transcribe or not to transcribe?
If transcripts belong on this site, I think they probably deserve their own section. Can we vote on it? If so, where? --MuppetVJ 19:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've been wondering about that. I think it's a really good question. The best place to talk about it is on Current events. It's not a question for a vote, at least not yet -- we're trying to keep votes as the last resort, if we can't decide something just by talking about it. How about you start the discussion on the Current events page, and then we can all figure it out together? -- Danny Toughpigs 20:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Frackles
Thanks for re-protecting Gloat. Sorry I didn't do it sooner, as I see Dean and others are just swapping back in any removed images. Geeze. I'm starting to hate Frackles now. Why isn't anybody this obsessed with Doozers? (Actually, I found a Doozer randomly doing an unmistakeable Rudy Vallee impression, and am debating whether to add him to Parody Muppets). --Andrew, Aleal 02:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I know. The Frackle obsession drives me crazy. In fact, I don't know what's worse -- their obsession with the Frackles, or my obsession with hating their obsession. -- Danny Toughpigs 02:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * And good on your for creating a Tough Pigs page. It has a greater right to be here than Muppet FanFiction, in my opinion (I irrationally hate that page). --Andrew, Aleal 02:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't getting rid of Dean eliminate the situation? Scooter 02:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Dean isn't the only Frackle-obsessed fan. Anyway, Dean is a very good contributor to the wiki. He's hard to deal with sometimes, but he provides a lot of solid information, and he doesn't break any rules. -- Danny Toughpigs 02:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

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