User:MuppetArchives/Current Events 10 (June 2006)

Archive of Current events discussions.

Muppet Show Airdates
I have air dates for The Muppet Show from Henson. We should have those on there. A friend of mine looked at the Lynda Carter episode the other day and had to email me to find out what year it ran. -- Scott (talk ) 19:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, yeah, I guess we need to have the year that it aired. Good point! What kind of air dates do you have? They aired in a different order in different cities. -- Danny (talk ) 19:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The TMS airdates I have are the earliest airings of each episode. -- Scott (talk ) 19:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if that information is useful unless we choose one market, i.e. New York, Chicago, Los Angeles. Otherwise, two episodes can have an earliest air date on the same date, and that's just going to be more confusing than helpful.  Since The Muppet Show is organized via production dates, I feel like that would be more helpful. -- Peter  (talk ) 19:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, they're all different: The Muppet Show Air Dates. As I said, this list comes from a good source. Only three of them have question marks. -- Scott (talk ) 20:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've got production dates, too. But they're not from as reliable a source. -- Scott (talk ) 20:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Those look like the New York air dates that you have there Scott (which are the most wide spread "standard" used by fans and other listings). The season 1 Muppet Morsels have air dates and production dates too (I think the NY air dates - maybe others?). Muppet Central's episode guides (for seasons 1 & 2) have both the NY and LA air dates along with production dates. Kermitage's episode guides has the NY air dates and production dates too. I'm not sure about the reliability of these sources, but at a glance they all seem to match up and align with what you have there. -- Brad D.  (talk ) 20:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What I have are the air dates that The Jim Henson Company keeps on file as the earliest known air dates. They may correspond to some cities fans are familiar with. If we don't use the actual dates, we should at least open it up to the month. Something like this: Earliest known airdate: May 1978 -- Scott (talk ) 20:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, production dates aren't entirely correct as they're somewhat misleading. For example, Lynda Carter's episode was taped the week after Christopher Reeve's; but any number of inserts could have been done at any time due to the nature of the show. So it's hard to pin that down. If we do include them, a note along those lines should also be included. Same goes for airdates. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * My feeling is that there's so much ambiguity with the air dates that I'm not comfortable saying "April 3, 1978" -- but I'd be comfortable with "April 1978". That leaves some more wiggle room, which I think in this case is justifiable. That way, we won't feel like we have to specify whether it's New York or Los Angeles, or whatever. I have a list of the Philadelphia airdates, I can check that against this list just to make sure they're in the same general ballpark. Scott, does giving a month work for you? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 00:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That works for me. Will we be doing an info box for The Muppet Show with airdates and production dates and leaving out the writers? -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 00:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought you were iffy on production dates. I'd rather put production dates in Notes or something. Plus, I think two dates in an infobox is confusing and hard to process. So my preference is to have an episode infobox with the show title, guest star, air date and director. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 00:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * We have production dates for the relevant taping times for each guest star. I think an infobox with both would be helpful. Especially the juxtaposition of say, the Gene Kelly episode. I'll make up an infobox for TMS modelled after the ones already in use. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 00:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Do we want to include director on these? They were just as regular as the writers. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 00:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

TMS episodes: new format

 * see below for the beginning of this conversation

Okay, I just messed with Episode 409: Beverly Sills. I left a little thumbnail plot summary at the top of the page, and then turned the "highlights" section into a description of all of the sketches, songs and backstage scenes. What do you guys think? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 23:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I like the list format better with the descriptions on the sketch pages when one exists. This format leaves itself open for contributors to editorialize and lots of POV. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 23:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me. --Minor muppetz 23:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't make sense to me to have a list, and then descriptions on all those different pages. That seems like it would be essentially the same text (POV and all), but split up and harder to read. I'd rather have one page with ten paragraphs, rather than ten pages with one paragraph each. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 00:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the new style is harder to read. It's nice and all, but I think the way we're documenting things it's easier to see a list. If I'm looking for something specific, it's much more difficult to skim a paragraph than it is to look at a list. If I'm out-voted on this, I propose separate pages for each episode with just a list of sketches. People don't want to read, I think they're mostly looking for information. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 00:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I just added an "on-stage" heading with a list of the on-stage sketches and songs. Does that help? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 01:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What if you renamed the heading for your summary of the show to Summary and On Stage became Highlights? -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I changed the summary to "Summary", but I like "On Stage" better than "Highlights". -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What about when Danny Kaye performs "Inchworm" backstage, or when Mac Davis performs "It's Hard to Be Humble" backstage, or when Liza Minnelli sings to Kermit in her dressing room, or when Bernadette Peters performs "Just One Person" in her dressing room, or Paul Simon performs "It's Been a Long, Long Day" or Piggy and Alice Cooper sing to each other, or Janice and Linda Ronstadt sing "It's In His Kiss"? -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I propose Sketches -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What does everyone else think of calling the list of sketches, Sketches so as to also include things that don't happen on stage? -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I get your point, but I still think "On Stage" is a more elegant heading than "Sketches". I think it works for "off-stage" songs too -- it fits the spirit of the section, if not the letter. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I would tend to agree, but it's confusing for someone not as cool as we are. Can you think of a better word? We're already using the term "sketches" for Muppet Show Sketches, as well as Ernie and Bert Sketches and other such lists. "On Stage" sounds nice, but it's misleading. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a hard time thinking in terms of not being as cool as me. How do the uncool people do it? I don't really like "Sketches", cause a lot of them are songs, and our categories make distinctions between songs and sketches. "Acts" is more like it, but that doesn't sound quite right. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, this is everyone's wiki, after all. We've been using "Sketches" for both songs and skits. I think the term works better than "Acts" or "Numbers." And I suppose "Segments" is just as good. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What I meant was, we have "Muppet Show Songs" and "Muppet Show Sketches" as different categories. Maybe "Songs/Sketches"? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That works for me. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "Sketches" or "Songs/Sketches" is better than "On Stage". And the list needs slightly more info. Mark the songs as songs, and for recurring sketches give a short description. -- ''<font color="Blue">Erik (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 23:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I understand about needing more info. That's what the summary is for. Yeah, I know the complaint about reading paragraphs has already been raised (I've never fully understood that, unless no spacing or headers were used at all and it was just one huge block), but outside of performers/characters and titles, what more would be needed for a thumbnail list? For recurring sketches, like Pigs in Space, the summaries are usually on the page anyway. For shows where the main storyline intersects with the sketches, like the Star Wars episode, to me, it works better to integrate the sketch info into an overall narrative structure. <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 23:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think Erik just means a brief description. The full description would be in the Summary and/or on the separate song/sketch article. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 23:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, the way I see the format now (Episode 409: Beverly Sills, the bulleted list serves as a "Highlights," if you will, of what is more thoroughly covered in the Summary. Like a brief tabel of contents so you can see a quick list of all the songs and sketches done in the episode without having to read the big, long editorial. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 23:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm for having both the bulleted list and the summary, as they each have their own separate uses. Songs/Sketches is a fine heading in my book. -- <font color="Blue">Peter  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 15:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You're a beautiful person. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 15:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Muppet Show episode pages
Looking at the various pages on individual episodes of The Muppet Show, it looks like many of the notes listed come from both the episode guides at Kermitage and Muppet Central, copied almost word-for-word. I am not sure if the individuals who originally wrote the copied information are the ones copying the info or if others have copied it, nor do I know if the information was copied without permission. Also, it seems like some of the notes from the Muppet Central guides are either opinionated or written from the writers point of view. I don't know if copying this info word for word is a violation of the Wiki's policy on not copying from other pages, but I thought I would note it. Also, some of the epsiode pages at Muppet Central have information on certain characters, usually in regards to the epsiodes beign their first appearance or some point of sgnificance. For example, the page for Episode 102 has some info about The Newsman being called "Muppet Reporter" in the first season scripts. While this is fine for Muppet Central, which does not have a character guide, here at the wiki this info could easily just be put in the page for The Newsman.

Also, many of the epsiode pages have a list of highlights from the individual episodes, which is written exactly as written in the Kermitage episode guides. Also, I feel like "highlights" is another word for "the best", which is mostly what the author considers to be the best, regardless of what others think. Some of the Sesame Street episode pages have a listing of highlights as well. --Minor muppetz 02:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, regarding The Newsman and Episode 102 of The Muppet Show, I deleted the info on him in the Episode 102 page and put that info on The Newsman's page. --Minor muppetz 02:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've always been distressed by the "Highlights" section. It makes more sense to have the skits and musical numbers all listed for a given episode rather than just 1 or 2, but there's nowhere to put them except in the highlights section, which then makes the heading wrong.  -- <font color="Blue">Merrystar  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You could list the skits under a "Segments" headline. --Minor muppetz 03:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I originally wrote the text for the Muppet Show episode guide in MuppetZine. I gave Mar and Michael permission to use my text on Kermitage. I don't need to get their permission to add it to the wiki, since I wrote it. I can't speak for the Muppet Central stuff, cause I didn't add any of that.


 * I personally think that "Highlights" can be useful. I think a straight list of every single thing that happens on a show is difficult to read -- I have a hard time looking through one of the Sesame Street episode listings. At some point when I have time, I'm going to figure out a better way to format all that information, because right now, it may be comprehensive, but it's unreadable.


 * I agree that "Highlights" can be POV. I'd be interested in coming up with some kind of balance, where we can be as comprehensive as possible, while still keeping the page readable. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Look at Episode 409: Beverly Sills -- it's fairly comprehensive at this point and is a good example though of what happens when everything is included.  I think at the least we should have all of the major performance numbers (skits/songs) listed in a section.  That would avoid subjectivity about which were the best.     I'm not sure how to handle the connecting material/framing scenes; I guess I personally like having some information on them available because it makes me smile to think about them, but they are harder to itemize and definitely make the list much messier.  -- <font color="Blue">Merrystar  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that looks okay. I'm in favor of listing everything if it can be done in complete sentences like that. What I object to is the Kermitage style, just a list of song titles and characters. I find that baffling and hard to process. If somebody wants to describe the acts, then yeah, that's fantastic. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * See, I prefer having a one-line listing of the sketches/songs and who performed in them under Highlights (or whatever we decide to call it), with further information on the sketch/song pages. Also, I think the backstage plot should be bundled together in the synopsis section at the top of the page whenever possible.  -- <font color="Blue">Peter  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 14:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, I didn't know that you wrote the guides in Muppetzine. Did you write any episode guides for any other Henson shows in Muppetzine? --Minor muppetz 14:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the stuff that's on the Fraggle Rock Episodes pages is also from MuppetZine. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 15:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As for the Highlights and plot -- I actually think it would be nice to have a full description of the episode, from start to finish. I'll try doing one later today to show you what I mean. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 15:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Upgrade shortly
Just to let you know, there is likely to be a short database lock today to allow for a MediaWiki upgrade. The time isn't set yet, I'll let you know if and when I get more information -- sannse (talk) 08:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This is now scheduled for around 19:00 (UTC) today (world clock). The whole process should take less than an hour - all subject to the whole thing going smoothly of course! -- sannse (talk) 11:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks for letting us know! -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 11:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

There was an unexpected conflict that took some time to cure, so the latest estimate is now 06:00 UTC tomorrow (world clock) -- sannse (talk) 21:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Sesame Street episodes
I just came across this list, which looks pretty useful. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)