User talk:Toughpigs

No Accounting For Taste
No worries about The Merrill Lunch Hungerdunger McCormack All-Accountant Marching Society (or whatever it's called for the moment), but Dean hadn't checked or otherwise ignored the history of the moves, and since the other discussions had been on talk pages, it makes sense for him not to have seen those. I'm hoping this brings it to his attention, and less likely, encourages him to raise questions first before making these kinds of changes. Also, though I expect he'll agree with the final title, I realized Jog, who created the page to begin with, hadn't weighed in with final assent yet. --Andrew, Aleal 14:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know if it'll make him raise questions or not. Working with him is frustrating. Worth it, cause he does a lot of good stuff, but frustrating. -- Danny Toughpigs 15:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Tell me about it. I don't know if he doesn't realize or doesn't care, but he edits as if he's the only one working on this Wiki. Still, as you say, it's worth the effort. At least he's not creating pages for non-existent non-Henson TV series! --Andrew, Aleal 15:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Pork Passions
I don't know if it's just the angle or if they altered her mouth between that publicity photo and the episode, but in that photo of Rudolf Nureyev, the pig looks positively lascivious! --Andrew, Aleal 20:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, do you blame her? He's quite a dish. I'd probably look the same. -- Danny Toughpigs 20:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. Oh, and re Staff, I created Sesame Workshop Staff and Production Crew awhile back, following that discussion. I waited on Henson Staff, since apart from the family, the folks who would really only fit in there, like Karen Falk or Craig Allen, don't have pages yet. --Andrew, Aleal 20:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

You're a goon
http://muppet.wikicities.com/wiki/Image:Elmo.jpg http://muppet.wikicities.com/wiki/Image:Elmosings.jpg --Scott Scarecroe 15:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that was months ago. Besides, I like the second one better. -- Danny Toughpigs 15:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Usernames
Thanks for putting the template up, I should have done that. I blocked him mainly because, by the time he changed "A Tour of Sesame Street with James Earl Jones" to a tour with Darth Vader, I figured he'd crossed over into vandalism. --Andrew, Aleal
 * Oh, yeah, I totally agree -- I'm glad you blocked him. I just put up the template so that he'd see it as soon as he came back. The guy was not helpful. -- Danny Toughpigs 17:17, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Danny!!
Thank you sooooo much, Danny! I had obviously discovered the FAQ page far too late in the process! I'm so glad you're available to help! Whew! The wiki is so fantastic...I'm definitely getting the other dollie-wagglers to hop on! Hope my innocent initial anonymity didn't cause a problem. (another FAQ point now absorbed). It seems everytime I'm sure I've remembered all the Muppetness and signed off.....oops! Speaking of...back to post another one! Julianne
 * You're welcome! I'm really glad you like the wiki. There's no problem with being anonymous at first -- that's how everybody starts. The wiki can be a little mysterious until you get used to how things work.
 * So speaking of that, here's another trick. This is how you sign talk page posts: -- Julianne ' ' ~ ' ' The four tildes automatically adds a signature and a date stamp. There's more tricks on How to use talk pages. Let me know if you have any questions! -- Danny Toughpigs 11:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

The Alistair Cookie doll
For reals? -- Scott Scarecroe 05:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I have one. It's cool, isn't it? -- Danny Toughpigs 11:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * He needs a page! -- Scott Scarecroe 15:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Voice Debates
Speaking of needing to step back from pages, I'm not sure if you've noticed what's been going on on a lot of the character pages, a good deal of back and forthing on performers, mostly between MuppetDude and Deeanmo19. I already put Sloth in timeout, as they reverted each other twice each, but it's been happening on Crumpet, Jabberwock (not back and forthing, but a sudden revert after the talk page had seemingly settled the issue awhile back), and now All-Dog Network Announcer. Some thoughts: a) Set up a Name That Voice page for open discussion, ala Name That Puppet, as the talk pages don't seem to be doing it by themselves, b) just remove the performer info entirely until an agreement is reached or conclusive outside evdience found, or c) write a policy that all performer changes for a character page must either be preceded or accompanied by an explanation on the talk page. Which may be an over-reaction, as I'm tired, but this is becoming annoying (though good news is that Dean is getting better about responding to talk pages over these issues). That's one of the downsides to the wiki, the fact that a fair amount of performer info for minor or one-shot characters is based by ear or educated guesses, and in a few of the cases, the problem seems to come mostly from when they contradict one or two online sources like the Punch and Jewelry lists or Muppet Central guides, which themselves are far from infallible --Andrew, Aleal 23:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I haven't seen that yet, but it sounds frustrating. When you get down to it, it's not really super important whether John Lovelady or Dave Goelz played the Crumpet, because, frankly, who really cares. The important thing is that back and forth reverts on the wiki are bad for the group. They frustrate people -- especially the major contributors, the ones who care the most about the wiki. It's incredibly frustrating to find that somebody's come along and reverted your changes, especially the second time, or that somebody's ignored your talk page message.
 * I think right now the way to deal with it is to encourage more communication and collaboration. If Tony and Dean are having problems, then my advice is for you to leave talk messages for both of them. (Not right now. Maybe tomorrow.) Compliment them on the great work they're both doing, then explain to them what you're concerned about. Ask them what they think would be a good solution.
 * Dean has a hard time with the talking, but he's getting a lot better as we keep communicating with him. Tony is great, I've had some nice conversations with him. I think if you take a step back, get into a patient place, achieve a state of clear, and then talk with both of them, you might be able to get somewhere, and we won't have to come up with a whole new complicated system.
 * Of course, it's late, and it's cold, and I just got home and ate a bowl of soup, and I'm feeling kind of mellow and relaxed right now, so this might be really crap advice. But it's the best I have right now. Yum, soup. -- Danny Toughpigs 04:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if these voice debates have affected the pages so much, and sorry if it has frustrated a lot of people. Danny's right; it's not really important who voiced a relatively small character, but frequent changes are a problem. I will try to stay away from making frequent changes among two or more contributors. Maybe I should concentrate more on adding more articles rather than going back and forth on the same subject.
 * I hope this helps. -- 161.6.42.135 17:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Eating
Do you really think "Muppets Who Have Been Eaten" sounds that much bettter than "Muppets Eating Other Muppets"? The reason I didn't give it the former title in the first place is that it's not just a list of Muppets who have been eaten, it's also a list of Muppets who ate other Muppets. To me, calling it "Muppets Who Have Been Eaten" implies that there's another list somewhere called "Muppets Who Have Eaten Other Muppets". Perhaps I'm overthinking it and I should chew on it a little longer, but that was my original reasoning. -Ryan PrawnRR 18:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. "Muppets Eating Other Muppets" is more inclusionary to both. -- Scott Scarecroe 19:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I dunno, "Muppets Eating Muppets" sounds kind of like a porn video. "Muppets Who Have Been Eaten" does too, but there you go. But if you guys want to put it back, then go ahead. -- Danny Toughpigs 19:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Would "Characters Eating Other Characters" sound better? Probably not, I suppose.  I think I'll change it back to "Muppets Eating Other Muppets" soon, unless somebody can come up with a better title (inclusive AND un-porn-tastic). -Ryan PrawnRR 22:21, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * "Character Consumption" comes to mind, though that could just refer to Piggy's shoe shopping. Still, I think Characters is better than Muppets, since non-Muppets have been eaten as well (i.e. Big Mama ate John Cleese's agent). --Andrew, Aleal 22:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's true, but now that I think about it, "Characters Eating Other Characters" sounds a little clunky. I don't know... I guess I'll keep pondering it.  Maybe eating this frog will help me think.  -Ryan PrawnRR 18:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You created the page; I never should have moved it like that in the first place. I just put it back. -- Danny Toughpigs 22:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't Muppet Morsels call it "Ingestion"? -- MuppetDude 17:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Overthinking
Just to show that we can do the reverse as well, and possibly that Muppet Wiki has broken my brain: Naked Muppets. --Andrew, Aleal 19:50, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's fabulous. I love it. -- Danny Toughpigs 20:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and just so you know, 66.236.47.2 is Chris, he must have logged out for a bit or timed out (as sometimes happens with Wikicities). No wonder he's getting a bit annoyed about our reverting him! --Andrew, Aleal 20:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know why people keep timing out on Wikicities -- that never happens to me. Is it a problem with their cookies or something? If we could figure that out, it would probably bring peace to the world. Anyway, I think we need to leave the Muppet Movie Goofs page alone for a little bit, and I think Chris needs to work on some other pages for a while, so that it can calm down some. It reminds me of the discussion we had with Scott about the Unseen Characters category -- it's getting way too hot for what should be a simple page. -- Danny Toughpigs 20:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!
Thanks for the welcome Danny!

I posted a goof for IVMMXM but Ariel didn't think it counted as a goof. Here is what I submitted.

Before the finale, Bobo stands in the doorway and tells the Muppets on stage that there are carolers outside and theat they should join in. Dr. Teeth is one of the Muppets on stage and is seen visibly excited to hear this news and is shown with the other charaters walking off screen presumably to go outside and join in the caroling. However, in the nex scene the good Dr. is no where to be found. What do you think? -- Chris Stulz 1 March 2006


 * Hi, Chris! I saw the conversation that you had with Andrew about the Muppet Movie Goofs, and it looks like you guys already settled it -- your contribution is there, so Andrew must have agreed with your reasoning. It's tough to trust anonymous people, so now that you have a user ID and people know who you are, you'll get more respect.
 * I have a couple tips for you about posting on talk pages -- it's something everybody has to learn when they first start posting here. When you're posting a new message for somebody, you should post the heading at the top of the page, so that they see it as soon as they come to the page. And this is how you sign posts, with your name and then four tildes: -- Chris ' ' ~ ' ' . The tildes automatically turn into a signature and a date stamp. You can check out How to use talk pages for more info on that. See ya! -- Danny Toughpigs 02:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, my concern was really mostly not with the contribution but the way we defined the "gray area," using the amount of Muppets shown varying in The Great Muppet Caper as an example (and at first, the style reminded me a bit of some odd vandals we'd had, which is why I mentioned it). On reflection, it probably counts, but in that case we probably need to move that section entirely, as it contradicts the lists above it (the Statler and Waldorf parachute thinglikewise). So anyway, welcome, Chris, and yeah, I wasn't trying to pick on you. Generally, if I (or anyone) posts a message like that, it's to open a discussion on the issue and give the person a chance to explain their reasons (and I may have jumped the gun on the first revert, but it was mostly because of the anonymity thing, and we've had several folks who kept obsessively adding only one detail over and over). And believe me, I've had a lot of those kinds of conversations today regarding my own edits, so it's not a personal thing. So welcome and have fun! --Andrew, Aleal 02:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Andrew, I don't know what you mean -- why is the Statler and Waldorf parachute thing a problem? That seems like a good "goof" to me. -- Danny Toughpigs 02:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying it's not a goof so much as I'm saying the page is contradictory about it! I quote: "These are not necessarily goofs as they are intended, many time for the sake of a joke. Examples of this include the fact that many of the Muppets that appear defending the Baseball Diamond in the climatic fight scene in The Great Muppet Caper were not with the Muppets as they snuck into the Mallory Gallery." It seems to me that either every case of disappearing/reappearing Muppets is a goof, or none are, unless the context is such that it's very clearly intended to be a sudden inexplicable crowd scene. --Andrew, Aleal 02:33, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I think they're different. There's a visual joke around the fact that Statler and Waldorf are in the cabin, while the rest of the Muppets are with the baggage. Having S&W parachuting down with them is a break in continuity. I'm sure it was deliberate, because they wanted S&W in the parachute sequence, but it's still notable as a continuity break. I think Chris' Dr. Teeth thing is too.
 * Really, the test for that page is whether the "goof" is interesting to read about or not. I never noticed the S&W thing, and I thought it was neat that somebody else noticed. Ditto for Dr. Teeth in VMX. On the other hand, I wouldn't want somebody to point out that the Newsman isn't broadcasting to anybody in GMC, because that's obvious and boring. -- Danny Toughpigs 02:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess that makes sense, though I still find it a bit confusing. But the "is it fun to read" standard works. And frankly, I find the "there's no food mentioned in the lyrics but then the Chef shows up with food" goof to be boring myself. --Andrew, Aleal 02:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's not the best one. It works, but it's not the best. -- Danny Toughpigs 02:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm just glad we're not using the word Bloopers. Really, anything past that is a secondary concern. -- Danny Toughpigs 02:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * "Bloopers" will probably turn out to be the name for some unusually bloated echidna who shows up on Name That Puppet. --Andrew, Aleal 02:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Scared Children
Back in my day, children scared children. Especially those in Catholic school uniforms. --Andrew, Aleal 21:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Y'know, some days, I feel like a scared child myself. Not on the wiki, though. -- Danny Toughpigs 22:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

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