User:MuppetArchives/Current Events 29 (July-Sept 2008)

Archive of Current events.

Video Clips
Hey, Scott, sesamestreet.org has some really old Ernie and Bert clips. Can we link to the actual clip, or do we just put "Online: Sesamestreet.org" on the E&B sketch page and let people search for it once they get there? -- Ken (talk ) 03:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a good discussion for the community. Should we link directly to the clips? I just added one as a reference for Rosita, but with such a confusing and long URL, I wonder if the format will change as the site evolves. They're still calling it a Beta version. —Scott ( talk ) 03:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's a good question. Looking at the site, I'm not sure that the Beta thing means they'll completely rework the video player (I doubt it, in fact, but can't find any e-mail to ask). Something which would simplify it somewhat, though, is a template ala the YouTube one. I checked, the first port of the URL is always the same. After the last equal sign is a long string. I don't know whether some users might find that harder than copying and pasting (as some always did with YouTube), but if the full URL is posted, we can always fix it. I just came up with Template:SSvideo as a test (reworking it from Scott's YouTube code), and tried a link out at Muppet Wiki:Sandbox. -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 03:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Another issue is that direct linking works, but only if one found the clip through a search or one of the many browse categories (characters, themes, etc.) Otherwise, say one watches one clip and then chooses another on the side, or from the main video page, the URL doesn't change accordingly. Not really a problem as long as people pay attention, but. Right now, my own thought would be that direct linking is worthwhile when it's a sketch that's not otherwise available or is used to source something (as Scott did), but for things like "Put Down the Duckie," which are widely available in various formats, I'd just note it's inclusion on the site. How's that sound? -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 03:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And in a related question, now that SS has 3 official video sites (YouTube, SS.org and SW.org), if we see that clips are playing in multiple places, should we mention all of them? I'm thinking that later on, one place might pull a clip, and we might not find out about it right away. -- Ken  (talk ) 03:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * YouTube, even as an official source, shouldn't count, since it's just a secondary distribution/promotion means, and in general, it's the least reliable for many reasons (outages, the workshop can private certain things, etc.) Worth linking to the general channel, but not tracking what's on it, in my opinion anyway, since it's also the easiest for any person to see for themselves what's there. To date, I don't think anything has been pulled from the video player and seems fairly unlikely on the whole. I don't think Sesameworkshop.org has any unique show clips, it just goes to the other site (though they may have some behind the scenes stuff hidden somewhere, and do have opening themes for the international shows embedded on the relevant pages). -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 03:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * My impression is that video.sesameworkshop.org will eventually go away as soon as the new website has been up and running for a while. It was announced as a beta version for better things coming later, which I presume is the new site, itself which is still claiming to be a beta site.
 * As for where and when to link to them, I agree with Andrew's assessment: sourcing and rarities. —Scott ( talk ) 04:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It looks like it's happened. Searching on Google under "Sesame Street Video Player" goes right to SS.org, and I can't find any trace of a video player on SW.org anymore.  So now, do we change everything to the new (and what appears to be permanent) site?  I know this will be a big project, and I've already started with double-checking Ernie and Bert's pages. -- Ken  (talk ) 04:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that's such a big issue, actually. The new site is still using the exact same Sesame Street Video Player technology, only it's part of the main site now and direct linking is available and so on. So we either merge the pages, or continue to use the Video Player page to track video portions which are available through the Video Player (only now, if desired, we can store the URls there too). The latter makes sense to me, and means there's no real reason to change any statements that the clip is abailable online via the video player (only anything that uses the old URl, and I think only the player page itself did that). -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 04:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that makes sense to me too. I assume all the clips got transferred over? -- Danny (talk ) 17:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing they have, but that's what I'm checking now, starting with Ernie and Bert's Apartment page. -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Sandbox namespace
I just created a new namespace for Sandbox items. Scratchpad-style articles that we've started and categorized at Category:Sandbox have, up until now, been included in the article count for the wiki's real encyclopedia articles and upon a basic search. They don't really belong in those places, so we've now got a Sandbox: prefix to place them in. In the future, instead of "foobar (sandbox)", please create new sandbox pages as Sandbox:foobar. —Scott ( talk ) 02:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, that's a great fix as far as those pages contributing to our total count. However, looking at some of the entries, I wonder, is there a way to clean that up? Not to discourage experimenting, and it may not matter now that it won't affect the page count, but some have been there for over a year, with no discussion on a talk page, so that it's not really clear what the experiment is or what it was there for and they basically seem to have been forgotten and abandoned. Some are self-explanatory info or image parking, there until something is confirmed or someone has time to finish it. Some, like Ventriloquism, were just stuck there because the person didn't know how to class it. And there's a bunch, like Sandbox:Opposites, which I think Brad created in response to some discussion but never mentioned at the time, nobody noticed, and the original user seems to have forgotten about. I don't have anything specific in mind, I'm just wondering how you feel about it. Would it be worth, say a reminder either on the user page or in a talkbox, just to clarify whether it's something that was forgotten (and might be worth restarting), whether it's no longer needed, or if it's mostly just a personal list for the benefit of the user (in which case, I'm wondering if they should be moved to the user page, or maybe, as a better means of keeping track, for both that user and the community, whether creating user name spaces for some sandboxes would be useful, but then again it could just as easily encourage all kinds of fanfics and lunacy). Anyway, I'm mostly just typing out loud, so to speak. Mainly, it seems like some of these sandboxes are there because the user wasn't confident enough to put it in a category or whatever, so instead of being improved, they just sit there (like Sandbox:Productions that have been edited on video). -- user:aleal 02:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup, I agree. My goal at this moment was to move everything to a place where it all made sense. I would think each item that deserves attention should be given some discussion on its respective talk page so we can figure out which stuff we want to make into real articles and which of those still need work and how we can move them forward. —Scott ( talk ) 02:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * We could set up a "last 10 edited" box like we have on Active talk pages and Citations needed. I think that helps to separate out the current pages from the dead ones. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Galleries
For anyone who's ever used the tag and has noticed that there's not a lot of space above the table on the page, I've fixed it so we don't have to keep adding an extra space anymore. —Scott ( talk ) 00:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hooray! Another example of better living through wikis. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 01:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Updated Sesame Street Website!
Go to to see what's going on! Webkinz Mania 12:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * OMG! The new Sesame Street website is already up already. I thought I was going to have wait till August 11th when the new season starts, but I guess not unless they are adding more. This is awesome and the video clips are the greatest. YAY! --Rocket Stevo 15:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And it has video clips featuring Roosevelt Franklin, Don Music, and Teeny Little Superguy! --Minor muppetz 15:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah! Classic clips and Presents clips that we haven't seen for a while unless we have PBS Kids Sports. You could almost spend the whole day watching all the clips. And they added more clips with Kermit in them too than last time. --Rocket Stevo 15:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * BREAKING NEWS! Click here: . Webkinz Mania 16:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, on the videos section, when searching videos by character, there are images of the main characters, followed by a "more characters" section. This section includes a few characters that there are no results for, including Leslie Mostly and Aristotle. Hopefully videos with them will be added soon. --Minor muppetz 16:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I cna tell, most if not all of the same sketches found on the Sesame Street Video Player are included, with same titles and descriptions. On sketch pages should we continue mentioning the sketches being included there in addition to the new site, or just replace mention of Sesame Street Video Player with Sesamestreet.org? --Minor muppetz 17:04, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, did they take down the Video Player on sesameworkshop.org, or at least make it harder to find? I don't see it on the main page like it was before, but I can still get to it from the link on the wiki. -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just an FYI -- Sesame Workshop is launching two new sites -- www.sesamestreet.org and www.sesameworkshop.org The Street site has all of the show clips - both new and classic, plus a ton of cool new games and features for kids. The video featured on the Workshop site does include clips from former CTW/SW shows like Square One and the old The Electric Company, represents international co-productions, illustrates the development, research and production process, etc. The official debut of both sites is still August 11, the same day season 39 premiers. Also, there is a new Sesame Street Channel on You Tube which is pretty neat -- new clips are being added on an ongoing basis. Carriemiller76 21:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been noting on many pages that certain sketches can be viewed on this website, similar to how we've done it for the Sesame Street Video Player, but now that I think of it, I think that it is possible to direct-link to clips. If that's possible, should we put the links there, or just do what we've been doing with the previous video player? And one thing that I've learned thanks to this player is that Harvey Kneeslapper has actualy sung a song on the show ("Tell a Joke", the title listed on the site), but whenever I click on it I cna't get it to load. --Minor muppetz 15:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The Muppets
So folks don't miss it: I started a discussion on Talk:The Muppets about how to leverage that page for extra Google juice. Please come check it out... -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * We decided on that talk page to move the content from The Muppets to the main page, so we could redirect Muppet, Muppets and The Muppets to the main page and build up the Google juice. I'm excited to see if this makes an impact on our Google ranking!


 * I made a sandbox page at User:Toughpigs/Main page for how the main page looks with the Muppet content. I put the text at the bottom of the left column, and the pictures at the bottom of the right column. When the box ad appears at the top right, I think it'll make the page pretty much even at the bottom. We may want to revise the text a bit now that it's on the main page, but I think the layout works fine. What do other folks think? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 15:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there any way to put the picture of Kermit peaking through the page directly under the description of the word "Muppet?" So it would be in the center, rather than to the left? I know that's not how we typically do pictures, but I think it would look better there than under all of the other pictures. --Justin 14:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Any reason why the text disappeared from the main page? I'm guessing it was just a glitch or something. -- ''<font color="Purple">Nate  (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 15:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * If you mean the stuff about the name, it's been moved to Sandbox:The Muppets. It was placed there after the decision to redirect, but without really looking at the text itself, which was repetitious, not especially informative or interesting to first time visitors, and just added clutter. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That being said, I would love to have some actual intro text about the Muppets in that space on the main page. It would be good for Google results, if nothing else. Like, a little summary of all of Muppet history, from Sam and Friends on. I could write it, but I'm kinda hoping that somebody will start it. :) -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Merchandise category alphabet tricks
Hey folks: I've been adding a bunch of merchandise pages lately, and I've realized that our approach to alphabetical order is a little confusing in those categories. Before I get into it, I acknowledge that I was probably the one who came up with this system in the first place. It just took me a couple years to realize that I'd made a mistake. You know how it is.

Anyway, here's an example: Sesame Street Housewares. For the Sesame merchandise categories, a lot of articles start with "Sesame Street" -- so we've been trying to sort them under the first letter of the object. "Sesame Street cookie jars" is under C, "Sesame Street trays" is under T.

The problem is, that's not really that easy to read... especially when "Sesame Street collectibles (Enesco)" is under E, and "Sesame Street plastic mugs (Applause)" is under M. Browsing through the category, it's just hard for your eye to settle on the letter you're supposed to be looking at.

I'd like to propose sorting those under S, and letting the chips fall where they may. So you'd end up with a list like this:

S
 * Sesame Street cake pans
 * Sesame Street cookie jars (Applause)
 * Sesame Street cookie jars (Treasure Craft)
 * Sesame Street dishes (Newcor)
 * Sesame Street keys
 * Sesame Street mugs (Gund)

And so on. In that category, there'd also be a couple things listed under E: the Elmo Animated Lamp, and the Ernie and Bert lamp.

I think that would be an easier system to browse through, and it would save everyone the trouble of trying to figure out what to do with the category tags.

If we decide to go with this option, we don't necessarily have to change everything over right away -- I know that may be a big job. I'm happy to do the work, as long as I don't have to do it all at once.

What do you guys think? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That sounds good. I'd kind of been wondering what the system was, since I noticed that some things were under the brand name, and some were under the item's name.  This is good, so we can keep similar things made by multiple companies (like hand puppets) together.


 * And I love the stuff you've been adding! Keep it up! -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

New YouTube Videos
New Muppet videos have followed Sam Eagle's Stars & Stripes FOREVER!!!! Postings from Beaker, Swedish Chef and Gonzo went up yesterday 7/16/08 -- Neffle 07:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Redirects
Hi guys -- I've been working for a long time on figuring out ways to make our Google search rankings go up... It's been a long-standing frustration, dating back to before I was working for Wikia. We get good rankings for some pages, but we should be #1 for Kermit the Frog and The Muppet Show, and we're not. I think the problem is the way that MediaWiki handles redirects -- it shows wiki/Kermit_the_Frog and wiki/Kermit as separate pages, so Google gets confused about what to bring up as results.

So after literally months of banging my head on this, I think we came up with a solution! We tested it yesterday on a couple of wikis to make sure the functionality works, and today I turned it on for us.

The change is: When you search for Kermit, instead of doing a "soft" redirect (showing wiki/Kermit), we're delivering a "hard" redirect -- going directly to wiki/Kermit_the_Frog. But we can't take the redirect link away from people, so that's being delivered separately as a javascript cookie. Anyway, blah blah blah -- go type Kermit into the search box and you'll see how it works. It functions the same way, and most people won't even notice the difference.

So that just got turned on, and I'm tracking six pages that aren't ranking as high as they should -- the main page, Kermit the Frog, the Swedish Chef, The Muppet Show, Statler and Waldorf and The Muppet Christmas Carol. Google re-indexes our pages about once a week, so we should see the redirect URLs dropping out of the search results over the next few weeks. At that point, I'm hoping we see a big rise in our results. Cross your fingers.

So let me know if you see the redirect stuff working in a surprising or unfortunate way. I think it's working well, but if you see any bugs, then I can get 'em fixed. Keep them fingers crossed. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 01:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've found a little glitch in the redirect thing... the javascript is supposed to clear as soon as you go to the next page, but it's not clearing properly -- it's just timing out after a minute or so. So the speedy editors among us may have noticed that sometimes the (Redirected from xx) message sticks around for a couple pages before vanishing.


 * I told Nick about it; he's the tech wizard who's been working on this. He's working on it, and we'll be able to fix this soon. I just wanted to give folks a heads-up if you noticed it -- it'll be fixed. I'll keep you posted if anything else shows up. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

In Development
Is there any reason we can't add more categories to In Development articles? --Trogga 08:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * See Category talk:In Development and Category:In Development. —Scott ( talk ) 08:42, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I just looked there, and it's not really explained on that talk page -- it just references an old conversation, which is probably in the Current Events archive somewhere. Does anyone know if we actually had a single discussion that explains our attitude about In Development, or has it just evolved? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's actually the reverse of an evolution. Originally, the idea was not to include anything in any other category until it came out, which was something Danny and other admins enforced in comments (see here), but I can't find where the original statement was, which may well have just been on user talk pages rather than current events (that was back in 2006, when a lot of policies were just "We like it this way, and we'll remind people in edit summaries" as opposed to actual pages and rules for reference, and since there were fewer editors, "Hey, I think we should do it this way." "Okay, fine by me" conversations outnumbered current event discussions). Gradually, other users either forgot, ignored it, or just plain didn't know and admins forgot or had a harder time keeping up with it, until six months back or so when we decided the entire In Development area needed to be more closely watched, sourced, and verified. -- 20:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Ian made an interesting point on his talk page. We've currently got Unfinished Projects categories as sub-categories in various places. Unfinished Movies is a subcat of Movies, Unfinished TV Shows is a subcat of TV Shows, Unfinished Merchandise is in Merchandise, etc.


 * We've got it that way so that people can find that information. Right now, we're not really linking to the In Development category at all. We set that stuff apart so that we wouldn't confuse people about what existed and what didn't (yet)... but we may have gone so far that we're actively hiding information that people would want to read.


 * It would be easy to split In Development up into the major subcats -- Movies In Development, Merchandise In Development, etc -- and then have those be subcats in Movies / TV Shows / Merchandise. That way, people browsing through Movies will be able to find the In Dev stuff. What do folks think? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a thought. I was initially thinking of exact parallels which would be problematic, but more general subcats (since a lot of stuff falls under merchandise) makes more sense than "Books in Development" and so on, since specific types will vary. With things like TV Shows especially, though, there's long periods where such a category would be absolutely empty, since in general "In Development" is a temporary category, until the project is released or clearly abandoned. Movies make a bit more sense (especially since things like Fraggle Rock have been in there for years, and may continue to be until it comes out or is definitely dead). Now that I think of it, instead of subcats, how about a list? List whichever movie/TV/toy products are currently in development and place in the appropriate category (also minimizing subcat/article issues), or a single list, ala Optioned Properties, and put in whichever categories are relevent at the time (movies, merchandise, TV, etc., and temporarily remove the category if there aren't any TV shows currently listed, and so on), and to avoid issues when something like a stage show or something unusual which doesn't fit in a major category crops up. I'll think about this some more, and see what everyone else thinks, but right now, since "In Development" is a more nebulous and changing category (albeit slowly at times), that makes more sense to me than subcats, while at the same time solving the navigation issues. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see the point of splitting up In Development. It's a temporary placeholder: if it gets made, we put it in a real category. If it doesn't, we place it in the appropriate Unfinished category. —Scott ( talk ) 22:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Stuff can stay in the In Development category for a long time... Street Gang has been there since March 2006. Unbelievably, the Fraggle Rock (movie) page was created on December 5, 2005 -- our first day! So given a long enough lead time and an early press leak, a legitimate project might be in that category for years.

I just think it would be helpful to expose that stuff a little bit more. Right now, it's completely isolated from the rest of the category tree. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I just thought of another option for this which might satisfy all three of us -- just put the In Development category as a subcat of Movies, TV Shows, Books, etc. So someone browsing through the Movies category will see Creature Shop Movies, Muppet Movies, Sesame Street Movies, Unfinished Movies and In Development. I think it's inconsistent to have Unfinished Movies in there, and not In Development Movies (or some equivalent).


 * If we add categories to the In Development category, then we could keep all the In Dev stuff together in one folder, but still expose the content a little more in the category tree. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 23:04, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That sounds perfect to me (and coincidentally, the solution that would require the least work). -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 23:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Awesome. Isn't it nice when things work out that way? If I can get an amen from Scott, then we're good to go. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 00:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Image links
Wendy just discovered a cool trick that's kind of amazing we haven't figured out by now. Placing #REDIRECT in an image description to go to the article that the image is about. I wouldn't want to do this everywhere, but I think it finally solves the problem I've had with disambig pages. Disambiguation shouldn't have any links other than where you're "soft"-redirecting to -- that's why we don't link Sam and Friends or Sesame Street on Henrietta; we want people to get to what they're looking for rather than get sidetracked by other links. Having the images link to the description pages has always been a deterrent for me because people like to click on pictures. So for people who don't know wikis, they get a confusing image description page instead of what they were looking for. So the click result for images on disambig pages will be the article you're looking for, and if you really want the image description page, you'll still get the redirect from x at the top of the page. Cool, huh? —Scott ( talk ) 00:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, I think the new image redirect thing is cool and all. But it might be a good idea not to use it for everything. What happens if the picture is changed, with a different address? I've been meaning to redo Artie Springer, for example, using a screengrab of the character on the show and moving the publicity photo to the Joey Mazzarino page. Not a big deal, and easily undone/fixed when a new image is added, but something to think about since apparently this is going to be used on a mass scale. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 01:17, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I totally agree about not doing it everywhere. One other thing I found I had to compromise on was Are We There Yet?. We have a picture of Sing-Along Travel Songs to represent the song, but if that picture redirected to the song, it would be misleading for its inclusion on the album page. So I uploaded Image:Disambig-arewethere.jpg just for use on the disambig page. I've only done the As so far with disambigs, so we'll see if this works. —Scott ( talk ) 01:25, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I think this is awesome. I've been wishing for this forever; it's amazing we never figured it out. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The other problem is that it becomes utterly recursive. Say I go to The Exciting Adventures of Super Grover, and want to check the image info. Clicking the image redirects me to the same page, but includes a link to the jpg at the top. I have to click that to get the file information. In some areas, this may just be an annoyance. But it should definitely be avoided with, for example, images used in the Sesame Street episode guides, since it would make it more difficult to see which pages already link to that image (and right now, more than one character or sketch page links to images of that kind). It's especially bad with something like Sesame Street coloring books or any similar gallery page. Clicking the thumbnail doesn't enlarge the image, just redirects, and that's frustrating to everyone, casual visitor and editor alike. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I totally agree about Sesame Street coloring books and similar gallery pages. The point there is to have a collection of images to look at, the purpose of which is defeated if clicking on them just refreshes the page. —Scott ( talk ) 08:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Scott and Andrew, I think it's super neat, but when I went to the page for Joe Mathieu, and I clicked on his self portrait, it just refreshed the page, and that annoyed me. Because there is no real article on him, just a gallery of his images.  -- ''<font color="Purple">Nate  (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 17:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, fair enough. I don't want it to be recursive either. I was just going through the Joe Mathieu page and linking the book images to the book pages -- I think that's a good use of this trick. I included the Joe Mathieu portrait without really thinking about where it was going. I added a redirect for the Who's Who on Sesame Street pic because that was on Mathieu's page.


 * Outside of a gallery, I don't think the picture promises anything -- so recursive images on some article pages are okay with me. When you hover over the picture, the tooltip still says the name of the image page -- so people won't be thinking that they can click on the picture on Cookie Monster and the Cookie Tree and it'll take them somewhere special. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:05, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm going to go ahead and undo the recursive gallery images for the coloring book and Mathieu's portrait. For the others, it's not a matter of promising anything, and won't affect average visitors, but it does create an extra step for editors who want to replace or upgrade a given image, requires that if said image is replaced with a different filename that one recreate the redirect, and adds another double redirect issue if a page is renamed. None of this is an argument against it, and I can put up with it if it's useful to visitors, but I think these need to be taken into account. With a page like Joe Mathieu, where the links are below the gallery anyway, I wonder how helpful it is in the long-term, whether it really helps the average visitor (and where it doesn't hurt to see the image enlarged without going to the page, especially for non-logged in users with the ad set-up). Just some things to consider. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess I was thinking that a gallery like that is the same as a disambig page... The idea is that people can see the gallery, and then follow the links to individual pages. In a gallery like that, I think a reader who wants to follow the link is just as likely to click on the picture than the link -- maybe even more likely, since the picture is bigger and offers a larger target.


 * It's true that the link is under the picture, but the same is true for disambig pages.


 * Plus, clicking the picture and going to that book page also gives people a larger version of the picture -- clicking on the Cookie Tree cover takes you to the Cookie Tree page, where you get a 300px-width picture. If you want to see something bigger than that, then you're right, it's two more clicks -- but a lot of the time, the picture is actually 300px anyway, or not much bigger. The Cookie Tree image is 368px wide, so it's not much of an improvement.


 * Anyway, I think it was good for us to play around with this a bit, and figure out some of these use cases so that we can talk about them. I won't add any more image links until we can all talk about it and figure out the pros and cons of using them. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This is an area that affects non-logged in users rather than us. Before the ad change, you're right, it wouldn't make a difference. Now, it does. Going to the article page, one has to look beneath the ad for the picture, and if one's on a page like Joe Mathieu and, say, wanting to compare the images and his art style, it causes extra effort to see the stand-alone image (since now on the image pages, the ads are on teh side and don't distract). So I think the biggest issue is simply, "Why are we creating the redirect and who will use it?" (one which will naturally vary). The disambiguation is one thing (and I think Scott's ultimate goal there may have been to jettison the links entirely, which would work there but be a bad idea anywhere else), and is there to help "people who don't know Wikis" But if it's just to save some visitors from clinking the obvious link below in an art or merchandise gallery, which in general is more of a collection of nice images than a navigational tool on the whole, creates two to four steps for everyone else, I'm not sure it's worth it. There's still room for figuring out pros and cons, I agree. The book gallery thing is worth examining, but off the bat, I'd like to say that I think it would be a terrible idea to try to do any redirecting for any images from, say, Miscellaneous Cameos. So I think that's another question, and not one which is entirely answerable: do average visitors treat all gallery pages as simple disambiguation or navigation pages? What do people go to a page like Joe Mathieu or Michael K. Frith Sketches and the like for, to look at the pictures both en masse and in close-up, or just to get somewhere else, or (in all likelihood) as a bit of both? (In which case, I'm not sure favoring redirecting over the other is all that helpful). -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay... Obviously, I saw this as a much simpler thing than you do. It's not something that I feel like I need to fight for, or advocate for -- just something that I thought was cute and harmless and worth doing. If it's a problem, I'll just revert the redirects I made. I don't feel that strongly about it. If somebody else does, then they can take up the discussion. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, I'm not trying to fight against it. But I think it isn't as simple as just putting it everywhere since it effectively changes the way the image file page works and is reached (a function which may not matter to visitors, but important to anyone adding, replacing, or renaming image files), and if we are going to use this on a massive scale, a simple "why am I redirecting this, how/who will it help, and what will it affect" is worth considering. That's all, really. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Turning ads off for logged-in users
I just posted a message on the Central forum... Logged-in users will have ads turned off for article pages starting tomorrow, so the only place where logged-in users will see ads is on the main page.

There are two options for people who want to see how the pages look for logged-out users. There'll be an option in preferences, under the Skin tab -- a checkbox that says "Show all advertisements". There'll also be a URL toggle if you just want to see ads for one page -- you can add ?showads=1 at the end of a page URL to see what it looks like on that page. The URL toggle will only apply to one pageview, so you don't have to turn it off.

So now people will have a choice about how they see the site, and I hope that it'll encourage more people to log in. I've been working hard to make this happen, so I'm excited. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

"Fight" Category ?
Hello ! I would have a suggestion for Muppet Wiki, not too silly I hope. ;-) What about a new category headed "Fight" for some sketches and episodes (like the Rita Moreno Episode of the Muppet Show, or the battle between Kermit and the Koozebanian Phoob, for instance) ? Or maybe a Culture article "Muppet Battles", as Scarecroe suggested when I told him about it ? Bat-Power 19:48, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think an article is a great idea! I'm not sure about the category, but I think the article would be really fun. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:00, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Fine ! I can create the article and write part of it, but I need help. Bat-Power 20:38, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sure, that's what a wiki is all about. Just start the article, and I'm sure people will help fix it up. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 23:04, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello, every one ! I've just started the article "Muppet Battles". I would very pleased if you could comment, improve or complete it, or add some photos. (As I say each time, I'm a French-Speaking Belgian, and I do my best in English.) ;-) -- Bat-Power 9 July 2008