User:Aleal/Talk Archive 21

Archive of Andrew's talk page.

I think I sorta got it
Not a priority right now, but check out My Fair Lady when you have time, and see how it's coming along. I'm sorta stuck with specifics with "The Rain in Spain", until the Sesame Street episodes guides get filled in for that season. Plus I stuck it in Category:Musical References as well, based on the Tracey Ullman as Eliza tidbit from you. -- ''Nate (talk ) 18:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That helps a bit but doesn't solve the central issue, since we need specifics for the references to the show itself, not the song parodies. The Ullman thing is my own memory, and I think it's loosely mentioned elsewhere on the Wiki, but not quite enough. I guess it could do with a citation tag and just leave it there, but it shouldn't set a precedent for how we handle these things (i.e. we're mostly pretty sort of sure there was a direct reference, but have nothing to directly verify it at all right now, and such cases shouldn't normally get pages). I was hoping someone else would weigh in, but everyone else is either pre-occupied, away, or just doesn't know. Also, for the record, for songs uses (check other pages, but "Songs performed by" as opposed to "Selections used in" etc. is more common) only apply to performances of the real song. Any parody is a reference (to the original song, not necessarily to the show, but with a legitimate reference to the show itself as well, they count.) -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 20:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey Aleal
It's i again, Kyle. I was wondering i talked to you about the Plaza Sesamo thing and thought i know Dish Network DVR can't be right but i since i've been recording these episodes the info on it says Episode 1 or 2 on it but it looks like they are showing a few 2007 seasons too. But if you go to the regular Wiki and type in Plaza Sesamo and it tells you how many episodes are prouduced in each season. Could we go by that to make a list of this newest season or what? Just let me know. -- Kyle (talk ) 11:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

For no reason at all....
Hi! -- Ken (talk ) 15:35, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Beam me Up Scotty
With all the other issues with the wiki today, this isn't a major one, but I wanted to park this on your page right now because I'm not totally sure what to do with it. Kermit Scott Obit. -- ''Nate (talk ) 19:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That's debunked at Kermit's Name. —Scott ( talk ) 19:36, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Almost to 17,000!
Hey, are we that close to 17,000? We'll have to celebrate when I get there! -- Ken (talk ) 06:30, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

E is for 8-track
Hi! Would you happen to know who drew ? -- Ken (talk ) 03:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Neat! It has to be Michael J. Smollin. Compare to his work on the Havin' Fun with E & B back cover and others (he did a huge amount of both book illustration and merchandise art for CTW). -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 03:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! This seems to be a rare variation of SS2, but the funny thing is that this one follows the LP's track order, while the 8-track with the LP's cover mixes up all the songs! -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Deletions
Hi! Thanks for fixing the Hooper situation. Can you please also delete the 2 Saturday Night Live pages that are also on the Delete page? They've been there a while, and that will finish cleaning up all the deletions I've asked for.

By the way, I managed to finish everything at work! Break out the cheese! -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Kristin Chenoweth
Hi Andrew -- Kristin Chenoweth is a Sesame regular, isn't she? She's Mr. Noodle's sister, Miss Noodle. I'd call that semi-regular, at least. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 07:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi! You were the one who proposed the policy, so it's your call really. By our own count, she's been in two videos and three episodes so far (though possibly we missed one), which is probably close enough for the category, but less on the whole than even Paul Benedict as the painter. Personally, I'd say she's more like a recurring guest, but the character is notable and memorable (and for Season 37 only, in which she made two appearances, Sesame Workshop included her in the cast bios) so I'm fine with the category, I just didn't think it fit with your policy on dates. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 14:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Has she really only been in three episodes? I didn't realize. Yeah, I guess I'd call that more of a recurring guest. I thought she was a lot more regular than that. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 16:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope. I checked, and right now our Elmo's World guide is complete, so yeah, three TV episodes and two Noodle Family appearances by everyone on videos. Yeah, it's like Hymie the Robot on Get Smart or other examples, memorable guest characters who people assume were on all the time when they weren't. We added Chenoweth to the Sesame Street Cast category before we had Category:Sesame Street Guest Stars (and at a time when even Kerry Butler, who only appeared once, was categorized as Sesame Street Cast). The introduction of a thus far unknown actress as Mr. Noodle's Other Sister, Miss Noodle last year for one appearance suggests Sesame Workshop may be grooming a substitute or even a replacement for when Chenoweth is too busy and Bill Irwin needs someone to fill in (just as Michael Jeter replaced Irwin entirely for a couple seasons, before they started alternating and co-starring). She's pretty much like Lynne Thigpen and B.D. Wong in number of appearances (and actually, I think Thigpen appeared more), just instead of a guest star needed for an arc, she's appeared every now and then over the years. I don't know if we want to recategorize or not, but that's an issue for the article talk page anyway. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!
You guys are fast! -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There we go to save the day! -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:23, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

A question to the master of motion
Since I too bow to you and your knowledge of the animation world, was The Oddball Couple not an authorized version of the Neil Simon play? Wikipedia has the credits as listing it based on the play, which would make it offical, but we know that the wiki is far from accurate. And now I'm curious. HUGS! -- ''<font color="Purple">Nate (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 22:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is nuts, of course, though not inaccurate as far as the *credits* go (more on that in a bit) but very wrong as far as the facts and reality. It's like saying Top Cat was based on Sgt. Bilko. It's true in a lot of ways, but ridiculous to list Bilko creator Nat Hiken as responsible. Like Hanna Barbera, who ripped off their own Scooby Doo countless times and came up with things like The C.B. Bear to simultaneously rip off Charlie's Angels (their boss was an unseen Charlie, only a woman) and tap into the CB radio following, DePatie Freleng launched several series in the 1970s which were attempts to cash in on trends in live action TV, but with only one exception, had absolutely no direct relationship with the original show, anymore than The Flintstones did with The Honeymooners (or for that matter, it would be like counting the "Miami Mice" puppeteers with cast members of Miami Vice or Pigs in Space with Star Trek, and so on), despite the obvious, intentional parallels. Their lineup included The Houndcats, an odd melding of Mission Impossible and a flop series called The Bearcats about two guys in a Stutz Bearcat at the turn of the century. So you had a team of canine and feline agents with specialized skills (the muscle, the master of disguise, the technical guy, etc.) and "This message will self destruct" recordings giving out the mission, but the leader was named Stutz and they rode in a Stutz Bearcat named Sparkplug fighting evil geniuses and saboteurs who threaten the USA at the turn of the century. There was also The Barkleys (with Archie Bunker-esque Arnie Barkley, a cranky canine schoolbus driver who had conflicts with his wife and kids; no credit given to Norman Lear, but even the title card was a ripoff of the All in the Family font).
 * The Oddball Couple was much the same, a cheap swipe with animals: Spiffy the neat freak cat and Fleabag (not Meatball, I'd forgotten) the messy dog, who were fellow reporters sharing an office and having wacky hijinks (the episode guide is here and the titles alone show how vast the gulf was between the original play or the TV series, focusing on cliches and monsters and weirdness, and the contrast only being there so they wouldn't have to come up with new distinguishing traits). You can read all about it here. Checking the credits, to my surprise, however, the series did include a "Based Upon the Play "The Odd Couple" by Neil Simon," probably because unlike the other examples, Simon was more inclined to take legal action and may have done so, need to check on that) so the credit was sort of a nod to him (and probably money changed hands, possibly pre-emptively precisely to avoid any problems, and Simon probably figured that a cheap Saturday Morning series with cats and dogs wouldn't hurt the reputation of his original work in anyway; the history of DePatie Frelengs TV work, as far as production and so on, is pretty murky, so I can't find any details, but these are fairly logical assumptions based on the way it tends to work in these cases), but Simon had no creative contribution or ownership or any involvement at all (nor did the stage, movie, or TV casts; radio actor Frank "Yeesssss" Nelson of Jack Benny and I Love Lucy semi-fame, played the cat, while Paul Winchell was the dog, and they had a bland secretary named Gloria who was just normal), so I still don't think it should be lumped in as an actual Odd Couple show. The only fully authorized DePatie Freleng show of this type was Baggy Pants and the Nitwits, sort of, which combined an unauthorized Chaplin rip-off cat doing silent schtick with "The Nitwits," Gladys Ormphby and Tyrone from Laugh-In, played by Arte Johnson and Ruth Buzzi, only as superheroes(!) Since Johnson pretty much created Tyrone, and Buzzi likewise with Gladys, and both had worked with DePatie Freleng before, there were no issues (the credits said "The Nitwits created by Arte Johnson.") Spoofs, imitations, and the like only belong, in my opinion, if the exact same characters and source material, no name changes or other random rejiggerings, are involved, and those kind were usually licensed in some way, if distinct from the same ones, as with the original Casino Royale (since the producer still had movie rights to the book, but the James Bond franchise was already launched and would have conflicted, so he just gagged the whole thing up to an insane extent) or the silly Superman musical It's a Bird! It's a Plane! But cast members of the very strange Superman spoof pilot Superdog, involving little people in dog costumes as Bark Bent and the like, wouldn't belong on that page (not that we have any on the Wiki as far as I know, but I think that clarifies the distinction). I keep adding to this response, but since you're probably curious by now, here's the opening to the Oddball Couple on YouTube. Sitting through that alone will help clarify the differences! (That basically DePatie Freleng wanted to create a cartoon which sounded enough like a popular show, but really just wanted to use the idea of two opposites without exploring the actual living situation or divorce or poker or anything else, just have them go to the jungle and ranches and confront a werewolf and such, though Fleabag's attire is suitably Madison-esque). --- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow! -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 01:57, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Have I ever told you how much I love you!!!!! That was beyond awesome! (and careful what you say about the Superman musical.  Scott may hit ya! :) -- ''<font color="Purple">Nate  (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 15:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, I bow to you
For some reason, I didn't make the Washington connection over on Talk:Episode 319: Elke Sommer. And your research skills are second to none. Thanks. -- Mark ( talk ) 20:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Connect The Odds
I'm sorry about Mr. Matthau, I didn't think about the fact that he's not a connection since he's just a reference, and didn't work with the Muppets. I cleaned up the page some more though, and might make one more pass. (I'm a little partial to the show ya know) -- ''<font color="Purple">Nate (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 20:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I need a Muppet expert
Are these really Muppets???? They sure look like ’em! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpRAvktSlRk Peace. —MuzikJunky 06:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not Andrew, but I'll answer since he's not around this minute. Those are from Crank Yankers, and are not Muppets.  -- ''<font color="Purple">Nate  (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 14:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank God for "What Links Here"!
All links to season sets taken off of song pages, sir! -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hooray! Good work, says I. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Good work to you as well, for all of your (re)categorizing.  I can discuss record numbers and label colors all night long, but reading your discussions about where and how to categorize Creature Shop actors and crew makes my head hurt! -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Scooter's Alternate Identities
Hey! The page looks (as Scooter would say) "Great!" Thanks for the new Alan a-Dale and chicken pictures. Is the "Jabberwocky" hero going to stay, do you think? It's a nice compromise with the name change. I still need to work on a new picture for that and for the Scarecrow. --Justin 20:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I wasn't sure (Ken also asked me why it was there, it's a brief skit and not an alternate identity by even the loose definition, and moreover Scooter breaks the fourth wall more times in those few minutes than as Alan-a-Dale), and I'm still not entirely comfy with it, but I cleaned up the bigger questions, so I figure we can deal with that one at a later date (since the corresponding entry on Rowlf the Dog's Alternate Identities would also need fixing). The chicken Scooter amuses me considerably. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I love Scooter as a chicken. Almost want to make him my avatar. --Justin 20:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Long term project
I know you're nowhere near Austin, but this sounds like fun. Maybe someday you or I (or both of us) will get there. -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I Love Lucy and Muppets Too
Hi! I just wanted to let you know that I left a message over at the Lucy wiki about confirming her being on Sesame Street. I'll let you know if I hear anything back. -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Plaza Sésamo
Hey Andrew. Just thought i would stop by and say hi. I'm Kyle. I heard from Ken that you've done some stuff with this show or have put some stuff up. I was thinking since we've got lots and lots of Sesame Street Episodes i thought since i'm recording this seasons episodes of Sesamo i would make an episode list. I figured you would love to help out but before i start i'll have to get all the episodes recorded. So i'll let you know. Talk to you later. Peace. -- ''<font color="Blue">Kyle (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 11:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi! The only problem with that is we generally don't know the episode number or how to order them. But it's a good idea to create such a list, park everything we know there, and stick it in Sandbox until such time as we can properly arrange them. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll do so. Thanks. -- ''<font color="Blue">Kyle (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 04:38, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

No Boing in the Boings?
You know a lot more about this stuff then me, but didn't Howard Morris provided some of the "effects" for McBoing Boing? Maybe my wording wasn't clear enough on his page. -- ''<font color="Purple">Nate (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 17:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Never. I've seen all four shorts and the TV series, so I know. If you're going by something on IMDb or Wikipedia, it's just plain wrong, dating from Jeff Lenburg's fallible Encyclopedia of Animated Cartoons. McBoing Boing's effects were just that, all mechanical or pre-recorded, nothing done vocally by a performer. The TV series with Gerald as a sort of host just used some of the same sound effects while narrator Bill Goodwin translated. Plus Morris wasn't even in Hollywood when the cartoons were made, he was still in New York working on Your Show of Shows and didn't do his first cartoon voice work until he worked with Gene Deitch in the early 1960s (and then in Hollywood, with Hanna Barbera). -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You are the master and I bow to you (I was going off the wiki). I've not seen the shorts in years.  -- ''<font color="Purple">Nate  (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 19:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Possible cool connection
I have to verify some sources, but I just read that Maeretha Stewart sang in the Archies. She also sang backup on at least one of the Sesame disco albums. Sometimes I don't trust Wikipedia, but that would be cool if it's true. -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's sort of true. "The Archies" as such were only Ron Dante (as Archie and Reggie) and a female singer (three different vocalists, as Betty/Veronica), double tracked when necessary, with producer Jeff Barry sometimes doing bass vocals. They sometimes had a backup group which sometimes included Stewart (and more often included other folks, like Barry, who were tied to the studio). -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Is Jughead our only direct connection, or were there other cartoons? I want to say I saw others, but they could have been Saturday morning.  I guess I can at least mention it on her page. -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Jughead's absolutely the only direct Archie connection (but not the only Filmation one; I'll get around to making a page for them one of these days). -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Cool! I didn't know Filmation did other stuff for them!  Thanks for your help!  (Although now I have "Sugar Sugar" stuck in my head...) -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Too bad about Harvey
I just read about Harvey Korman's death. I also forgot to tell you (and you probably already know) that Earle Hagen died, too. And Sydney Pollack and Dick Martin. Man, this has been a tough week. -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 01:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Earle Hagen probably meant the most to me, mainly because he did *all* the music for The Andy Griffith Show and most other Sheldon Leonard-produced series, and was probably the second foremost contributor to classic TV themes, behind Vic Mizzy but ahead of Frank DeVol. And I'm mildly surprised Dick Martin never worked with the Muppets. He was one of those celebs who always seemed inherently Muppet-like in and of themselves! -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 01:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The Case of the Missing Book and Record Set
Hi! I'm sorry to keep asking you so many questions, but from your edits to The Case of the Missing Mother, it sounds like you have a copy of the book and record set. If you do, could you please scan the front and back covers when you have some time? I'm looking into making some kind of article about the Muppet Music/I.J.E. stuff, and the back covers are cool, and also we can put the record cover on the storybook's article page. Thanks! -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 01:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi to ye too! I scanned and uploaded the front cover on the 28th (and added it just now) and finally got around to scanning the back cover (which is identical on all Muppet Music titles). Most helpfully, it provides a list of the available titles (again, identical on the three I now own, which arrived in this week's mail thanks to a cheap e-bay auction), which is the ones we know about, and so implies any number variance is just that, a fluke variance or possibly an indication of unproduced adaptations. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What other ones do you have? I have Manhattan. -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Manhattan, Missing Mother, and Gonzo and the Giant Chicken. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Cool! I can't wait to hear those! -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Bob Ross
Hey Andrew. I found a VHS titled "Bob Ross and Muppets: "My First Painting": BR-10 (Summer Scene)" on ebay. The seller claims it was from 1991. I'm pulling up less than nothing as to what this might be. I'd love to have that as an appearance page (ok, so I find Bob Ross mesmerizing... and have never painted anything in my life) but I can't find any info at all about it. Do you have any resources that might help? -- <font color="Blue">Wendy (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow! I don't have any details, and I see the auction already ended. But I too would love to have Bob Ross on the Wiki, and it would make sense (given The Frugal Gourmet cross-overs). I'll keep looking into it, and in particular check through PBS catalogues, library catalogues, and other sources to see whether and how much Bob Ross was put on commercial VHS (without a cover, it's hard to tell, but the copyright notice on the sales VHS implies it may have been purchased or been a premium). I'll be sure to look into this! It may well be a long-term project, but I'm sure we can find something if we keep digging. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've already found a few things. The closest I could find is MWTBR09, "Summer Reflections." Looking around, this may well have been a PBS station's copy as opposed to a commercial tape. *But* don't forget, there's still Bob Ross Inc., who maintain a website to sell products and provide information. There's a large number of VHS/DVD products here, several involving summer but none matching the BR10. But sending a direct e-mail could help (maybe ask if they have a list of the 1991 Joy of Painting shows and which ones are currently available). -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking. I'll ping the Bob Ross people when I get a chance; if only to confirm the broadcast year.  I suspect they won't know exactly which muppets were on it :).  -- <font color="Blue">Wendy  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * True, but if we can find out whether they have a tape or DVD of 1991 show involving summer (hopefully only one), and what it's precise title is, it would help a lot (either for an investment or to obtain through library exchange, since many public libraries carry both Joy of Painting and Frugal Gourmet tapes in their educational section). -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Das Muppet schtuff
Hi! Thanks for moving the German CD's around to their main titles. I kept forgetting to do that. I've been messing with translating foreign song titles in between doing my American stuff. I'll be working on making some new US song pages today, from my new records. Thanks! -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey, also a quick question. Since you're the connections guy, I figured you'd know. I noticed that almost all of the people on The Stars Come Out on Sesame Street album were also on The Muppet Show. I was trying to find a list of people who have appeared on both, but I couldn't find one. Do we have a list like that here? -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)