User:MuppetArchives/Current Events 16 (Jan 2007)

Archive of Current events discussions.

Quality article nominations
I want to make sure that everybody knows that Muppet Wiki:Quality article nominations is up and running. As discussed below, we're creating a new category for "Quality articles", to show off our best work. If you haven't seen the nominations yet, come by and add your voice to the discussion. -- Danny (talk ) 15:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The use of YouTube
I'm kind of concerned about the use of YouTube links on the wiki. We've expanded our coverage of individual Sesame Street sketches in a huge way over the last few months, and that's brought in a wave of YouTube links, added by a variety of different contributors. Right now, Ernie and Bert Sketches: Apartment has 25 YouTube links.

The good thing about YouTube links is that it's a nice extra research tool. It gives people access to information about individual sketches that they otherwise wouldn't be able to know. Ideally, the wiki of the future is part of a worldwide multi-media database, blah blah blah.

The bad thing about YouTube links is that they die. A lot. Especially when they're copyrighted material. I have absolutely no evidence for this, but I would estimate that at least half of the YouTube clips that get posted on the wiki will be taken down within a year. A year is like two lifetimes for a YouTube clip. Which is fine, who cares, except then the wiki is littered with hundreds of dead links within a year, and it's nobody's job to check the links and make sure that they work.

So Muppet Wiki readers in the far-off year of 2008 will be very excited when they see that every Ernie and Bert sketch has a YouTube link -- and then very frustrated when they discover that half of the links don't work.

I hate to say it, but I don't think there's a solution for this problem, except to say that people shouldn't post YouTube links on the wiki. I know it's harsh, but I think we should take them out, and make it a policy not to add them anymore. There, I've said it. Bring on your lightning bolts!

If there are folks who disagree with me, my question is: What's the system that we can use to weed out the dead links, as they go offline? -- Danny (talk ) 23:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Just now, I removed two dead YouTube links. In general, I tend to agree. I know Scott created Category:Pages with YouTube links to help police them, but I don't know how useful it is. Some links have been up more than a year and may be around another year or even two. Others last less than two months. Plus, we're constantly having to remove links from things which are currently commercially available, or removing specific links which we think don't need to be publicized, like Henson films. YouTube is a fantastic resource, for image grabbing, to confirm performers and fuzzy memories, to transcribe things, etc. But it's always with the unknown factor of how long it will last. It's sort of like Amazon.com. By now, most Muppet fans know it's there, and know how to find stuff, and I don't see it as our duty to collect the entries, especially if they're taken down, put up again under a new URL, etc. I'd think they could still be used on talk pages, as proof of something, and I don't see anything wrong if users want to include a link or two on their personal page. But for the database itself, right now, dropping the YouTube links might take care of a lot of hassles. -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 00:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If a YouTube link is dead, it's because A) the user removed it out of precaution, or B) the user's entire account got deleted for some other reason having nothing to do with Sesame Workshop, or C) not all of the link was copied. That said, I don't think we need to remove them. --MuppetVJ 01:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Now Sesame Workshop hasn't called in their lawyers in to get stuff yanked off YouTube (yet), but Disney (Muppet Holding Co), Henson and other copyright owners have. I've uploaded over 20+ Muppet/Henson videos over the past 6-months and only 3 are still up there (My account hasn't been shut down but the videos were taken down). And even if it doesn't get taken down for legal reasons, stuff goes down for other reasons. I've removed more than a handful of dead links over the past year here.
 * Aside from the problem of dead links, there is also the issue of copyright. Now we aren't actually publishing the content and it would be hard to legally punish Muppet Wiki or its editors for linking to the content; but we are, in a way, supporting and enabling the illegal breach of copyright. Wikipedia has a rule that states: "If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work." It is somewhat of a moral dilemma (I love watching the videos, I've shared some, I spend more time than I should watching this rare and awesome stuff, I even hope specific clips surface...but it doesn't make the distribution of these videos any more legal).
 * Also, I've never been clear on what our "policy" is on video links – what videos are ok and which aren’t (I know commercially available stuff is out, but there are other "grey" areas). There are so many songs, episodes, sketches, appearances, films, specials and other Muppet/Henson works not on VHS/DVD that could uploaded and linked to (some I've linked too only to have other remove the link later). I actually brought this up on External link guidelines as I have no idea where we currently draw the line on linking to what is essentially all illegally posted copyrighted content.  -- Brad D.  (talk ) 11:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a good point, but a tricky one. We actually violate copyright ourselves on the wiki. We don't post videos or song lyrics, but we do post photos that we shouldn't. It's typical for websites to claim that screencaps are "fair use", but we have a lot of promotional photos that are copyrighted images. Now, I don't think a copyright holder will ever come after us. I've cheerfully violated copyright on Tough Pigs for five years, and I never heard a word. We just need to think about how much copyright violation we want to live with. -- Danny (talk ) 12:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Search feature under construction
Hey folks: The people at Wikia are currently working on upgrading the search feature. They started trying out the new feature last night, and they're still working on different options today. During the transition period, things have been pretty wonky. Right now, the search isn't doing full-text searches for pages that were created recently -- but I'm sure that'll change soon enough. Scott and I are talking to the folks at Wikia about what we're seeing and how things are working, and we're telling them about the changes that we need to make the site work for us.

If you want more up-to-the-minute information and discussion about what's happening with the tech stuff, you can join the Wikia mailing list... -- Danny (talk ) 13:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm pleased that they're sorting out the search feature. It seems to be a lot better now. Now if I want to get to the Ojo page, if I accidentally put in oJo, it still takes me there. George B. ''(talk ) 18:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, there'll be some more change to the search feature, but I'm happy to see that it's better now than it has been for a few months. -- Danny (talk ) 19:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Quality articles
What about having a special tag or image that could go on all articles featured on Today on Muppet Wiki? How about having a Today on Muppet Wiki highlight --- members nominate and vote on their favorite past featured articles and the winners are put together in a special feature. <font color="Blue">George B. ''(<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, a lot of times "Today on Muppet Wiki" isn't necessarily a superb article. Sometimes it's just something that's current, like the announcement of a new DVD or an upcoming talk show appearance. If you wanted to come up with the most loved articles, then that's something to think about, but I think Today on Muppet Wiki is too whimsical to be the core of that project. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I agree with Danny on that, but George is onto something. Today on Muppet Wiki is kept in its own archive so that doesn't need to be chronicled with a special marking, but I definitely think something like a "Muppet Wiki Seal of Approval" tag would be great for articles that go above and beyond with their information. Some of these articles have been featured as Today on Muppet Wiki items, but overall one does not have to be the other. The awarding of this honor, like the Themes issue, can be a subjective and based in individual preference, so if it were to be put into place, it would definitely have to be something we vote on. However, I think the voting for something like this could work almost exactly like the Main Page picture nominations; nominate, specify a required number of needed votes, and a finite time frame for voting. Sounds pretty cool to me.. :) --Cantus Rock 18:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a cute idea, maybe a weekly or biweekly award. If we can come up with a cute name and a cute graphic for it, then I'd be all for it. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Ideally, a cute name of that nature would tie into the content of the Wiki. I suppose we could call it Kermit's Seal of Approval or Bear's Seal of Approval :), but the only problem I see with something like that, I suppose, is somebody confusing it with an actual endorsement from somebody official. In the more mundane department, perhaps something like the Muppet Wiki Special Feature. I guess I'll have to think no this some more... <font color="Blue">George B. ''(<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * May I submit (with paper *finally* done), The Fred Award. Since there's already a precedent, and what better than a bowling trophy to mark the articles so favored? -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:04, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ooh, I like that. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 13:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I like it too. It's clever and it's not so immediately recognizable that somebody casually browsing would mistake it for some kind of official endorsement. <font color="Blue">George B. ''(<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, so are we going to get on this, then? I can design the graphic if nobody else here wants to, but I would imagine somebody else here probably has a better idea of how that should look, given that my Muppet interests tend to be more towards Bear in the Big Blue House and Sesame Street. <font color="Blue">George B. ''(<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 16:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I think denoting quality articles is a great idea. So to get the ball rolling on this idea and to move forward (as it sounds like people are for having some such thing). Wikipedia has "featured articles"; what if we did something like this? With a nomination process similar to this? Feel free to polish these ideas and continue discussion so we can get a system that works. 05:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I like the graphic! I think the award should be given to those articles nominated and three votes cast in support. — Scott ( talk ) 17:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I was thinking it would be a weekly award, voted in the same way as the Main page picture nominations. If all it takes is three votes, then almost anything could get the award. We'd have a bunch of Frackle pages in no time. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the idea is not just to mark our personal favorite articles or simply pick best of the nominees, I think it should be to catch the best articles on the wiki. So here's my idea: Each week the award would be awarded to an article – and if there is a tie it could go to the multiple articles (and maybe in dire cases of poor voting/nominees that week, nothing would "win"). Users can nominate any article (only 1 nomination per user can be up at a time). Users can vote "support" (and say why) or "objection" (and say why!) for any nominee. They can vote their support/objection to as many nominees as they want.  Scoring wise, supports are like "+1" while objections are like "-1". The winner needs at least a score of 3 (meaning at least 3 more supports than objections) and they have the highest overall score. Having people allowed to object give a "checks and balance" to prevent a bunch of bad pages getting in. And objections also give quality feedback to make an article better. Allowing users to support/object to multiple nominees prevents the winner from being just the best of the current nominees and turns out to be any article with that can get lots of support with little objections. -- <font color="Blue">Brad D.  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't like the idea of "awarding a trophy" to articles because they're "winning a contest." I figured the icon was supposed to be more symbolic than taken literally. I think it makes more sense to put together a category of our very best articles that match the criteria of Muppet Wiki:Quality articles. This is not a list of our favorite topics. We already do the weekly thing for "Today on Muppet Wiki," what's the sense in doing it again? — Scott ( talk ) 19:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, its not a contest to get our favorite articles. It would be awarded to mark the best articles. -- <font color="Blue">Brad D. (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Totally agree. The award should be given by merit, based on overall consensus and discussion. <font color="Blue">George B. ''(<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, now that makes more sense to me. I didn't understand the system that you were proposing before. Now that I see what you're talking about, it sounds good. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

To get us started, I suggest a sandbox list of potential articles. Discussion should then be open to determining whether or not they meet the criteria. — Scott ( talk ) 20:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I set-up Muppet Wiki:Quality article nominations. If we want we can just open up nominating of articles there. -- <font color="Blue">Brad D. (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I see that very rapid progress has been made on this, but I'd like to propose mentioning this on Current Events before we go any further. While the themes and category creation issues still have not been fully resolved, and while this has been a reasonably active discussion, it's still such a major addition, especially with nominations, that I'd feel more comfortable if it were mentioned there, just on the off chance that interested parties have somehow overlooked the discussion, and especially if we do wish to encourage nominations. Secondly, while I'm fine with sandboxing and discussion on talk pages of nominees, I'm beginning to feel a bit uncomfortable with the rapidity of this. That is, the Quality Article and Nominations things are fine pages, but right now they're still primarily Brad's work, and I'd feel more comfortable if we allowed at least a day or so for a fuller review and agreement of the specific language and criteria *before* we start nominating; thus, while changes may well still occur based on how it goes, as we've done with main page picture voting, we'd have a slightly steadier starting ground. I'm still on dial-up, and need to vacate shortly since my mother may need the phone, but this should definitely be added to Current Events, if someone could do so, or else I'll take a stab at it when I next get online. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, having some more review and polishing of the criteria and process would be good before we put it in effect. And posting about this on current events to let everyone know what's up is a good idea too. There is no rush to get this thing started today. -- <font color="Blue">Brad D. (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)