User:Cantus Rock/Talk Archive 01

Archive of Matt's talk page.

Concepts
Hey, Matt! I thought of mentioning it on your talkpage first, but I'm busy with the Fraggle Rock Season 2 DVDs (wohoo!) so didn't get around it. Sorry about that. Anyway, notice the pages on The Moon and The Sun and so forth, or links to eyes. On Muppet Wiki, we have a lot of fun including Wiki-links to related concepts to commonplace words in our database, to show how wide our scope is. If it's completely misleading, we change it. At some point, if we have a full Locations Lists page on different rivers and riverbanks, we can link to that instead. For now, I see no real harm in it, unless, as said, you want to take out the whole The Great Muppet Caper joke (in which case you'd probably want to remove the image from the scene, which again wouldn't hurt if an actual hotel image is substituted, but it's both informative and amusing as it is now). We're a Wiki and yeah, pretty big on facts and sources, but that doesn't mean we can't be playful from time to time. Look at China! Or look at Turkeys, "see also Fozzie's act." We're not making stuff up at random, though, just having fun connecting different realms of the Muppet universe. -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 02:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thats cool, I'm all for the jokes (in fact if it were possible I think I'd insert jokes into everything in life..specifically knock-knock jokes and lots of flinging pies). Its just that specific one was a little confusing, going to an article on Hotels in productions and then being linked to something that doesn't have to do with hotels (especially with real hotel links beneath it). Thats why I removed only the link rather than the whole joke. I see what you mean now though. --Cantus Rock 02:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah. The context (a joke quoted from the film) and text make it pretty clear that riverbanks *aren't* hotels, so why not link to a riverbank? It does take some getting used to. Muppet Wiki's actually been around less than 10 months, but in that time, we've evolved ways of communication and approaches to articles. Especially after, some time in March or so, certain sites reviewing Muppet Wiki referred to it as "informative and dry," we've tried to take a sort of wryly humorous approach to pages (Andy's another example) without just making stuff up or becoming clearly POV. It helps to look at related pages, though even then, with so many contributors, not all are written the same way. Anyway, if something doesn't make sense to you, don't hesitate to start a talkpage or ask the author, but quite often, there's a reason for it. Other times, of course, it's just bad writing, confused thinking, or in rare instances, an anonymous contributor but not quite a vandal whose blatherings haven't been caught yet. And I'll echo Danny's comment at the end of current events, by the way. As a newcomer, but one working in a wide range of articles and categories, don't hesitate to take notes on things that seem odd or formatting changes. Obviously we won't always agree, but sometimes there's oddities which weren't intentional, but we just hadn't thought of or really noticed (easy to do with 10,000 plus pages). So feel free to bring them up, on category talk pages or in current events, but to be specific (i.e. formatting concerns on Dinosaurs pages, which you alluded to but I'm not sure what you meant, and so on). Current events archives are pretty fragmented, but we've had a lot of fruitful discussions, and a few unproductive but still interesting ones, on everything from song pages to episode formatting, but generally taking it one area or/show at a time. Now *I'm* blathering, but I thought this would be worth explaining, especially since I've enjoyed debating and discussing things with you and appreciate your great additions, and don't want you to feel frustrated or as if the admins are targeting you or something. -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 03:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Junk Lady
Hey, Matt! What's your source for The Junk Lady interpretation? We generally try to avoid personal analysis not clearly supported by the production itself (I'll admit to bending the rules a bit on Minor Characters in Time Piece, but even then, not much). In this case, there probably *is* a source somewhere (production notes, interviews, Froud's Goblins book, etc.) So it would be a good idea to look into it (we generally don't count fanfic/online fan discussions as sources), or else reword it. Also, sources on "The Land of Junk" and "Junk People" in general would be useful. -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 02:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I was taking my lead from Capitalism, which delved into the deeper implications of Doc Hopper. The metaphor seems pretty clear to me, take it out if you don't think it belongs. As for the names the Junk People and Land of Junk, I was going to post on each about the names. I wanted to represent them but didn't know anything exact, so I was hoping someone with more insight could move them if necessary. Just wanted to get that ball rolling a bit. --Cantus Rock 02:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Capitalism and Communism] are concept articles, and exceptions. Note that none of those comments are on [[Doc Hopper, nor should they be; pages like that, and China amd The Universe, are explicitly more interpretive, because it's interesting and amusing. And even then, nothing said about Doc Hopper or the rest isn't in the films. The last paragraph about the Junk Lady and consumerism isn't (it could just as easily be interpreted as not consumerism in the wider sense but clinging on to relics of childhood and the past). It's mainly the last paragraph, which could probably be reworded, re moved (or used in an amusing article on consumerism). And from what I recall, nothing in Labyrinth the film specifically refers to other junk people or "the land of junk." Is the land of junk even a seperate area, or just one pile? The junk lady herself was included in Froud's Goblins book. I'm not saying it's not there, but that you need to make it clearer what your referring to (I don't recall any other puppets similar to the Junk Lady, for example, though again I'm not sure), and specific scenes or images that led to your conclusions if not explicit statements. With Labyrinth especially (see Talk:Jareth), I'm wary that fan-fiction and fan conceptions don't wind up there. -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 03:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I *think* I see your source for the junk people thing (this shot included at least two creatures moving under similar piles). Still not sure that indicates whether they are in fact "many," though (it could even all be one family), and looking again, whether the "land of junk" is even a land or just a single garbage heap/lair. Considering how many brief but sometimes distinct nameless corners are in the Labyrinth (most of which I'd hesitate to call "lands"), you might consider creating a Labyrinth (location) page, and merge any spots not clearly specified (unlike the Goblin City, Bog of Eternal Stench, etc.). -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 03:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)




 * I've been watching the scene very closely all day. There are several Junk people seen rumaging in the background, most noticably one who takes a swig of a drink while blurred behind Sarah. The Land of Junk definitely is definitely vast, evident during Sarah's descent into it from the dream. If you pause the wide shot when Sarah is first transported to the outskirts of the Labyrinth (while Jareth is still talking to her) you can see that there is definitely enough room beyond the actual maze of the Labyrinth to accomodate a "land" of the sort. As for the consumerism, I'll take it out of the article and place something on the talk page about; maybe someone with some other insight can confirm or deny the deeper significance. --Cantus Rock 03:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Here is a shot of the swigging Junk Person (its hard to tell, but his face is lower left, and just below that is the bottle, and his hand is clutching it, barely touching his lips). There is evidence of many also by the fact that if you keep your eyes on the background, there are many mounds moving in the same belabored motion as The Junk Lady. --Cantus Rock 03:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User page picture
Aw, I liked the other picture of you better. -- Danny (talk ) 21:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * lol...that happy kid isn't the same guy anymore (unfortunate in some ways I guess). I just wanted to change it because I look so much different now, and the quality was so poor in that shot (Jim's handprints deserve better!). Hopefully if I can get over to M*V3D (pretty much the only time I break out the Cantus shirt) I'll get one of my friends to snap a more recent shot with the digital. Ugh, and I was just at Magic Kindom yesterday to ride the new version of Pirates of the Carribean, could've gone right over to MGM and done it then.. eh, just another excuse to go to WDW now I guess ha! --Cantus Rock 21:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So you live near one of the parks? That's cool; WDW is one of my favorite places. -- Danny (talk ) 22:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, I live about 15 minutes away in Winter Park. Lemme know if you're coming sometime, we'll party at Muppet*Vision :) --Cantus Rock 03:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Aw, I would if you still had the nice picture. Now you're the scary picture, I dunno. :) -- Danny (talk ) 17:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I Love Liberty
Hey, just another FYI: Posting a request for a copy of a show isn't appropriate for the wiki. If we allowed that, then pretty soon the whole wiki would be full of people asking for a copy of a show, or a book, or whatever. It would get messy. For that particular special, Scott and I were the ones who added that information. We saw it at the Museum of Television and Radio -- so if you're ever in New York or LA, you can see it there!

In other news, you've been adding some great stuff -- I've never seen the Kermit Tuxedo Watch before! Very cool. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 11:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Celebrities
Hi Matt -- I had to delete your page about Brian Posehn, because he's never actually worked with the Muppets. We only create pages for celebrities when they interact with the Muppets, or Henson. The line that you posted about is sort of a "Muppet Mention", but it wouldn't qualify under our definition of Muppet Mentions. Let me know if this is confusing at all. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope thats fine, still learning over here.. --Cantus Rock 22:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Pitches
Hey, Matt! Just so you know, Category:Pilots and Pitches is for things which were actually made, as either aired pilots or filmed pitch reels. Concepts don't count, and in fact I've considered creating a new category for outside ideas, like "Henson Company Pitches," for ideas proposed by other artists or writers but not accepted. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 01:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey Alex, thanks for that info. Sorry about the mass changes, I'd just come off of doing Darin McGowan's article and just kinda moved seamlessly to his pitches.


 * The "Unfinished" in Category: Unfinished TV Shows is what threw me for a loop, since the shows were never started in the first place. Maybe the category could be renamed "Unmade TV Shows" (or something to that effect), to encompass pitches and shows that may have been put into some kind of production and canceled before airing (like America's Next Muppet). --Cantus Rock 01:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * For the record, it's Andrew, by the way (though Alex is my dad's name). And that's a thought, though "Unmade TV Shows" could equally refer to non-existant shows or even Optioned Properties; in the case of the items currently in unfinished, pretty much only McGowan's stuff never entered even a pre-conceptual phase, and why should it, since it was an unbought outside pitch, and why I think a new category might be useful. What also makes it unclear I think is that "Pitches," with the exception of "The Woozle World" (which *did* lead to a series) refers to pitch reels, not concepts. And actually, even though nobody has seen it, America's Next Muppet should probably be moved, since a full pilot was shot. Anyway, you'll notice I tinkered with the definition on Pilots and Pitches. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 01:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ouch, my mistake. I assure you that you'll be Andrew to me from now on, and my apologies. Anyway yeah you're right about the "pitch" aiding in the confusion of that. Maybe "Pitched Concepts" or "Pitched Ideas" would be a good title for the "Henson Company Pitches" category you put out there (something that can encompass the "it came from outside of the company unsolicited" part and allow to include more than TV ideas, or it could be broken into different categories TV, Film, Attractions, etc.) --Cantus Rock 01:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Character list
Hey Matt, another little FYI: I saw your edit on the Jim Henson's Muppet Show Bill page. Typically, the format that we use for a list of characters like that is to have them separated by commas. A bulleted list takes up a lot of space on the page. Just a little style note. You've been doing great stuff -- I hope you find that Fraggle game! -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 09:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Doesn't it make it a lot easier to read though? Because of the large number of characters that are linked to other pages paired with a few unhighlighted text, the comma list looks sort of thrown together...enough to take up a little extra space for the sake of readablity. Has this been brought up in the Current Events section at all? EDIT: I didn't see anything so I made a headline for it in that section. --Cantus Rock 16:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Toy labels
Hey Matt: Your pages on the Nanco Grover Plush and Sababa Christmas Kermit Plush are very cool -- there are so many toys that we don't have on the wiki yet, so it's great to get some more up there! Your detailed descriptions are really helpful; you have a lot of patience and attention.

I'm not sure about the descriptions of the tags and labels, though. Those descriptions feel a little "TMI" to me. I can't imagine a reason why a reader would want to know exactly where the UPC code is, or whether it says that the doll complies with safety codes. What do you think about that? Do you think it's necessary, or would it be possible to leave that part of the description out? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 11:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I kind of look at it like superfluous information that is found in really detailed school text books. I remember when I was in a biology course, and a book took like an entire paragraph to describe the texture of a leaf. I couldn't understand it. But then, when I thought about it... if a person is REALLY interested in that leaf, that information might be important to the reader (and I was just happy that I wasn't one of those leaf-crazy people). Well thats is how I feel about the Muppets, and thats especially how I feel about this wiki project. Its exactly the kind of project I seriously enjoy, because it allows for you to ellaborate as little or much as one pleases. I feel like, if you're going to make the article, go as far as you possibly can with it. Because if I don't own an item, or haven't seen a character, or am just learning something new here (which has been happening nearly daily -- thanks random button!), I want to learn as much as humanly possible. And if the article is there anyway, whats the difference really? The toy articles are often so small that its the matter of a few sentences that one can skip if they don't care to know that info..


 * This is actually something I have noticed about this wiki, and I wanted to get your opinion on it: after some poking around, I've noticed that there is a good size to the wiki, but often not a lot of detail in certain articles. I've been tagging pages with the { {attention} } template, and adding a good amount to the Images Wanted page. I was thinking that maybe these two sections (Pages that need attention and Images Wanted) could be beefed up a little bit, in an effort to not only expand the wiki with more articles, but to expand the articles we already have into more detail. I'll continue to add to both if you agree..


 * Do forgive my obsessiveness Danny; I just want passer-bys who happen to stumble across this place to say "damn, those people are FREAKS about this stuff!!" I can leave out some of the text about UPC and other less-necessary tag info though if you'd really perfer it though. :) --Cantus Rock 15:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it's a really tricky thing, figuring out how much information is enough, and how much is too much. That's something that comes up a lot -- if you look at some of the talk pages, especially the Current Events archives, you'll see lots of conversations about how to organize all the possible information that we might have.


 * There are definitely a lot of places on the wiki that need to be expanded. The wiki is so big and inclusive -- characters, episodes, performers, merchandise -- there's just so much stuff to add. I'm always amazed by the information that ends up on the wiki -- making connections that I'd never thought about, or showing me something I'd never heard of. It's awesome.


 * On the other side of the scale, I want to be thoughtful about making the articles readable and enjoyable for the average wiki reader. I totally agree that I want readers to say "WOW!" But I think there's two kinds of wow -- there's "wow, these guys are amazing," and there's "wow, these guys are insane." The first wow means that the reader is impressed and happy, and wants to read more. The second wow means that the reader is creeped-out and uncomfortable.


 * That's a difficult line to draw, and it basically comes down to a common agreement among the active contributors about what's worthwhile and what's not. Usually, conversations like this end up as a group discussion, where we all figure out how it should work.


 * So, to help that process along, here's my take. I think that the interesting stuff on packaging is: The logo, the words that describe the item and the character, pictures of the characters that are on the box, copyright dates, and the name of the manufacturer.


 * The stuff that isn't interesting is the stuff you would see on pretty much any toy: The UPC code, the material information, washing instructions, the safety compliance stuff.


 * If you don't mind, I'll do an edit on the Nanco Grover and Santa Kermit articles, so you can see what I mean. If you don't like it, we can always revert my changes. I'm glad we're talking about this stuff -- one of the things that I get "obsessive" about is talking about wiki articles! -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 16:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay I get where you're at with the edits, that's fine. I might add just a tad more detail to the tags but not going to go overboard. I'll fix the copyright info also. --Cantus Rock 16:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Cool, thanks! -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Muppet TV (France)
I don't know if this is only for people who want to leave messages for me rather than a place for my own feelings, but after seeing this article I became very upset (not uncommon when it comes to modern Muppet productions, but this one struck a nerve peticularly). Muppet TV (France). What the hell is this!? Its one thing to dub The Muppet Show into French; its the actual actors, just with applicable voices. But this, this is just blatent Disney character-pimping. Thanks again Brian! --Cantus Rock 04:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, this is okay, although it's going to get pushed down by other people's messages. You could also use your user page for stuff like this -- that way, it'll stay wherever you want it to be. You can write pretty much anything on your user page, so feel free to keep a blog there, or whatever you like. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 11:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Image tags
Hey Matt -- Just an FYI. We use image thumbnails that are 300px wide, so you have to add a little extra bit in the image tags. This is what the code should look like:



Let me know if there's anything you need! -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks Danny, done and done. :) --Cantus Rock 17:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Posters
Hi, Matt -- I'm glad to see you back, and I'm glad you're working on Muppet Posters! Unfortunately, I had to take out the two pics that you uploaded there today, because that page is for posters that are commercially available to people. I think having the "Here Come the Muppets" poster as a separate page is a good idea, once we figure out what category that should be in. The other picture would be good as an illustration for a page about that exhibit. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 00:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Danny -- I am still getting used to the formatting and everything involved with wiki, so thanks for understanding on that part. I just want to make this database as extensive as possible. I do think that in order to properly include everything there needs to be some reworking of the sections. I'll continue to work on my pages and we can get them all sorted when the catagories are ready I guess.. --Cantus Rock 15:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I was thinking we could even include it on a page about Official Muppet Signatures. I hadn't seen most of those before.  -- <font color="Blue">Peter  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 15:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Excellent idea. I'll see if I can find any of my old autograph books. As far as I recall I should have at least Miss Piggy and Kermit in stamp-form. --Cantus Rock 15:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Awesome! You can go ahead and start adding this stuff, even if we don't know exactly where to put it yet. All we need to do is come up with the names of the categories, and then it's easy to put things where they belong. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 15:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Welcome
Hey Matt! Nice to see you here.

A small tip: Whenever you post something, it's a good idea to include your signature. If you type --~ (2 hyphens and 4 tildes), it comes out showing your user name, and the date and time you posted the message.

I look forward to seeing what you have to contribute! --MuppetVJ 15:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)