User:MuppetDude/Talk Archive 01

Archive of Tony's talk page.

Animal Show
Hello Tony, Just thought I would tell you (if you haven't noticed) I have completed adding in the Animal Show episode info that was in that MC Thread. So each episode now has an entry (I'm largely leaving the individual character profiles to other people to do), but I was wondering if you could check through the episode lists, to see if there are any that are wrong. Since you seem pretty up on this stuff. Also I'm confused over the cameraman's name and species. Thanks Emma 21:39, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The cameraman's name is Dullard the Aardvark, but he's known incorrectly on the Wiki as Dunnard. I have no idea how to change it, so maybe someone can help. -- MuppetDude 13:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, Tony! I didn't realize you didn't know how to do that. Just change the text to the correct name in the article, and move the page. The "move" tab, which is available to anyone, is on the top, after history and before "unwatch." It then opens a screen, and you just enter the new nam, and if necessary, an explanation of the correction. Hope this helps! -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 14:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

7-Words-Max
Hi Tony- I was just wondering what your source was for 7-Words-Max being the same puppet as Tosh Fraggle. It doesn't seem immediately obvious that they are the same, aside from both being pink Fraggles, unless I'm being misled by their Wiki pictures. -- Mary Catherine (talk ) 17:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Its in their design--both have the same snout shape, and identical eyes. Tosh's hair would later become more faded and curly, with a few brown hairs. If you switch from both pages the face and head design are indeed the same (well, except for the teeth). However, I am basing this on the pictures. Once I can get a copy of Season Two I can confirm my findings. Would you like for me to remove it? -- MuppetDude 17:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it's cool. I was just curious. Thanks! :) -- Mary Catherine (talk ) 17:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's actually probably worth discussing, Tony. Such observations are appreciated, but do we have proof it was the same puppet, or just the same pattern? Some puppets are clearly recycled, but in cases of more generic puppets like Fraggles or all-purpose monsters or Whatnots, where certain kinds (like the small Fraggles) are pretty similar to begin with, it might be better to just say "similar in design" unless we have reasonable proof beyond visual comparisons that the're "the same." It's the sort of assumption one could make more easily with the Doozers, maybe, since they really weren't altered and occasionally one sees Doozers reused with the exact same hair or beard patterns, but in this case, while there's a definite resemblance, the assumption sounds just a bit iffy to me. -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 23:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with that. But what would be the best way about getting proof other than visual observation? -- MuppetDude 15:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Fraggle Quotes
Hey Tony - for the quote boxes, you don't need to add quotes around the line if the character who's speaking is already named at the beginning (i.e. Gobo:). It's redundant. Thanks. -- Peter (talk ) 17:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry. I was trying to make the quotes consistent for other pictures that don't identify who's speaking (such as the ones for Muppet characters). Besides, it was taking a long time--thanks for stopping me. Would you like for me to remove them? -- MuppetDude 17:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That's ok. I already removed them.  And yeah, if you identify the speaker, it's the same as saying it's a quote, so it's not really necessary to have both.  Thanks for helping move all the quotes.  -- Peter  (talk ) 17:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Grapdelites
Hey, Tony! What's your source for Brian Henson as one of the Grapdelites? I took my info from Bill Cotter's Wonderful World of Disney Television, which is not infallible (at one point mistakingly implying that Earl Hindman voiced Mr. Otto Lynch), but it seemed plausible enough to me. -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 18:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. Glad to have you around again! -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 18:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll be around more frequently by August 28th. My reasoning for Brian is that he sounds just like Arthur Rizzic and a little like Scooter in It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie. Brian's characters have very similar voices. -- MuppetDude 18:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Near and Far (song)
Hi! Just to let you know, there's a question about your contribution to this article, particularly with Kathy Mullen and Elmo. -- Zanimum 15:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Quotes
Glad to have you back, Tony! Just as a friendly request, though. It's not a big deal, but when adding quoets, I'd appreciate it if you'd check what's already in the caption. In some cases, like Mother Wilkerson, I actually think a description is as useful as, or could be used in conjunction with, a quote (Architect Doozer linked back to Doozer Dome, for example). In most cases, I've just tacked the info back on, but thought I'd let you know. Oh, and I have to admit, the juxtaposition of out of context quote and the current image on Nicky Holiday amuses me considerably. <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know. Would it be okay to add the quote after the caption? -- MuppetDude 20:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure! Just in this case, replacing existing text with "Aaaaaah" seemed *less* informative (plus I quite like the "celebrating the day in the traditional manner" line). <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't too proud of that change myself. By the way, I should be able to regularly update the Wiki around August 28th. -- MuppetDude 19:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Dude!
Hey, Tony -- it's great to see you back on the wiki! I hope you're having a good summer! -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Good to be back for the times I can get back. Thanks for the welcome! -- MuppetDude 19:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Research Errors
Tony, thanks for catching Frank the Square. Further research shows that in fact the sentence should have been 31 year old daughters. :) (I'm not sure how long "Frank and Northern" will survive anyway, it just amused me at that moment to add them to the Wiki, and really it's actually less arbitrary than "Purple Lothar" and the like). -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 16:17, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I don't mind those characters being there, but the comment would have been a bit too obscure for non-TPers, so I removed it. But thanks for the link--it puts the whole thing in perspective...but how do we know that's their names?


 * Now I won't be able to sleep tonight. -- MuppetDude 16:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * They have no names, really, anymore than Purple Lothar (which still puzzles me) or Hippie Grump. Feel free to move them to the more objective Hipster and Square if you like, of course. As for obscure comments, isn't that what the Wiki is all about? Though it would have been better had it come from Gerald S. Lesser, certainly. <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 16:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed. I think it would be better to label them as the "Shapes Square" and "Shapes Hipster", but I don't know how to do that. By the way, feel free to use this for more obscurity (and if you've got any questions, just ask me--I helped him compile much of it before Muppet Wiki came along. Now I've got a new list to worry about!). -- MuppetDude 16:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, why is there a Purple Lothar? Lothar is purple. I'm going to combine those. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 16:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Wait a minute--in the pictures of that version he's blue. However, from what I've seen on The Muppet Show the puppet was covered in purple fabric that's more fuzzy, and was given different eyes. -- MuppetDude 16:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think he only looks blue because those pictures are taken from an old videotape copy, and the colors are a little messed up. If he's really a different puppet, I think that could be noted on the Lothar page. I don't see the point to making them into two different characters just because he got rebuilt slightly differently. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 16:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. And here is one clear picture (on your website!) depicting him as a blue character. -- MuppetDude 16:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, good point. I forgot about that picture. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 16:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think in general it would be a good idea for us to combine those kinds of pages. We don't make a different Miss Piggy page every time there's a new version of the puppet. I think when Frackles and other background types get redesigned, we should have one page for the character, instead of two or three. There's usually only a few sentences on each of those pages anyway, they could easily be combined. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What about when they have a new name and identity? I've been puzzling over that a bit. Initially, I leaned towards seperate pages, so we have Lyle the Dog, All-Dog Network Announcer, and Colonel Claghound. But then there's all the Muppet Meeting Films characters who when they had names, were seldom consistently so. Maybe it comes down to whether it's a seperate production and how large the role is? The Meeting Films characters are by nature transient in names and roles, but on the other hand, it's kinda neet to see when Lyle or the like pop up in other series, or the Fraggle Rock characters recycled as Rude Dude and so on on Mopatop's Shop (on the other hand, The Christmas Turkey being named "Martin" in Christmas Carol doesn't justify a seperate page). So I guess I'm in favor of consolidation unless a name is used heavily and otherwise the character is marked as distinct from the earlier incarnation, or a notable predecessor to the more famous identity (ala Fuzzyface, P. Fenton Cosgrove, and Arnold the Munching Monster). -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's hard to come up with a single rule for all these different kinds of situations, so I'm not going to try. But in general, I've been on a kick lately to consolidate information, and get rid of some of the teensy articles. We've done a lot of expanding and infodumping, and now I'm trying to work some on improving the quality of the articles that we have. It's kind of annoying for a reader to click on a link, and find exactly the same three sentences that were on the page they just clicked from. So I'm trying to combine those when I see them.
 * If Statler and Waldorf don't get separate pages, then I don't see why background puppets that don't even have consistent names should have three different pages. You know? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I see your point, but the question is how do you divide the difference? In some cases its obvious (All dog Announcer, for example, should be folded into Lyle since it's not even a name or identity, just a label; I like keeping Col. Claghound seperate just because of the name joke and so on, but since the puppet showed up again on Dog City as a different character, I can concede that one too). But should Prince Charming be consolidated into Guy Smiley (as one anonymous user kept trying to do) since while a different character and voice, they not only have the exact same pattern but exact same eyes and hair in most appearances? And actually, as far as seperate pages go, should Philo and Gunge be combined? My hesitation has been this very issue, since Philo has basically vanished while the Gunge puppet has been recycled as multiple food critters on Dinosaurs (with taxidermy eyes), as a Toodlepip on Mopataop, and so on. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that Prince Charming and Guy Smiley, though they do look alike, should be kept as different characters since the personalities are different, both have appeared on merchandise despite their differences, and the 1979 SS Character guide has even made them different characters.


 * By the way, from what I've seen, the Tootlepip is the Philo puppet. -- MuppetDude 17:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The Tootlepip was gray-brown, though, wasn't it, and without all the fluffy side marks? That's Gunge. And can you believe we're even arguing over which one was recycled as a throaway gag character called "The Tootlepip?" <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Here's where I spotted him if it helps. -- MuppetDude 17:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I know that, though Real Player doesn't allow screengrabs. It looks like Gunge to me. Only the eyebrow whiskers, which look like feathers put on, are pink or purple, and it reminds me of how Gunge looked on Dinosaurs (possibly with the taxidermy eyes still, even, since those are covered). -- 17:40, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * True, but look at the sides of his head--he's got patches of fur just like Philo. Unless they were attached to the puppet later...


 * Man, now I won't be sleeping for a week. -- MuppetDude 17:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I went ahead and consolidated Philo and Gunge, so whichever one it was, it's covered. I think we need more discussion about other cases, though, possibly on an individual basis. Gleep, started by an anonymous user, is pretty useless, only supplying a one-time name in a sketch where the puppet had little to do and repeating stuff which could go on Fuzzyface or Grover. Now, the latter two are a greyer area, but in many ways the early materials treat Fuzzyface as a different character, and there's a decent amount of info on that page. So maybe page length and information repetition should be the biggest sign? I like P. Fenton Cosgrove, I admit, since it allows us to go into details about an amusing appearance which is signficant to Cosgrove but trivial in relation to the career of the Waldorf puppet. It could be consolidated into an expanded seperate appearances section, but does it have to? -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Andrew, I agree that it's not easy to make the distinction, so it just has to be a case-by-case thing. I think my main principle is that if the pages are essentially duplicates, then we might as well consolidate them. The individual Statler and Waldorf pages were almost identical, so we put them together -- same with Andy and Randy Pig, and Wayne and Wanda. I think Philo and Gunge should be combined for the same reason. I think the stuff you're talking about -- the Gunge puppet being used for a few post-FR things, and the Philo for another -- could easily be in the same article.

I don't think that every character "pair" needs to be consolidated -- for example, Bunsen and Beaker have enough done enough solo stuff to make them worthwhile as separate articles. I think Prince Charming and Guy Smiley are clearly separated too; they were used in completely different ways, and Prince Charming was never supposed to be Guy Smiley in disguise or anything. So, case-by-case.

In general, I've been trying to bring the mean page size up. Part of that is making pages bigger, and part of it is consolidating and deleting the small pages. I think as the mean page size goes up, the reader experience gets better -- there's more interesting content per click. When it's feasible, I'm leaning towards consolidation, but it's not a hard and fast rule. It depends on how interesting the click would be, and whether it gives any information that you wouldn't otherwise get. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * After looking at the Fuzzyface page, this could easily be made into the Grover page. There's not much info on Fuzzyface, and as for him being separate from Grover, he does however evolve into him, and early segments show early Grover characteristics (getting things wrong, getting stomped on, and his slapping Kermit on the back). -- MuppetDude 18:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, I think Fuzzyface could be part of the Grover page. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I shouldn't even be on here (Wiki is like crack and Oh God am I killing myself with it), but in that case, I leave it to you guys to do it. There's some good info which is worth saving, as opposed to Gleep which I just made into a redirect. I guess in general I'd want to see the information folded into the article before any redirects are made, since in some cases, some general page restructuring is needed first. I'm not sure if all the Cosgrove details could fit into the Statler and Waldorf page since they focus on only one of the pair exclusively, and an early version with a different performer and a flaming Delaware car. <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, yeah, consolidation means moving the info from the original pages. We shouldn't just make a redirect that deletes information from the wiki. Now go work on your papers! -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Picture captions
Hey Tony -- I like the quotes you've been adding as picture captions! They really help to spice up the pages. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Then I'll add more then! Thanks! -- MuppetDude 18:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Vandals
Hi, Tony -- Thanks for spotting the vandals, and helping to clean up! -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 13:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem.


 * And thank you for uploading those old Sesame guides! Great stuff, this Wiki. -- MuppetDude 13:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I know, isn't it lovely? There's surprises every day. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 13:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Fat Blue and Harvey
Hey, Tony! I'm not sure I understand your concerns about Harvey Monster. I understand the distinction you're making between Anything Monsters and Anything Muppets, but Harvey clearly uses the Fat Blue head, with no modification (unlike Bennett Snerf, who personally I'm more uncomfortable with, or classing Frazzle as a Pumpkin Anything when the pattern was completely covered in fur or otherwise altered). I thought it was useful in tracing the variations on the pattern. Or is the specific image of Harvey you disagree with? (The Monsters! (LP) cover more explicitely shows the fat blue head). I haven't messed with turning most of the other Anything pattern pages into galleries yet, but I want to make sure we're on the same page, more or less, on such things when I do. My basic approach is, if it's not coated with fur and a clear use of the pattern (like Pointy-headed Green for Hortense Monster), it's worth including for comparison (on the other hand, I don't think it would be at all useful to showcase Frazzle alongside Sully and so forth). --Andrew, Aleal 21:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Harvey's head isn't quite the same as the fat blue AMs; while it's the same shape, the monster puppet has a larger mouth and jaw. That's why I removed it from the list. But if it's for variations of the pattern, then I'm up for it. Maybe it would be benefitial to mention the Anything Monster pattern being based on it? -- MuppetDude 17:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Performer Reverts
Hey, Tony! Thanks for helping clear up some Sesame stuff, and especially the international Muppets (I'm still amused by how they got away with Federico Fellini on Plaza Sesamo). As you may have noticed, you and Dean have been back and forthing on character performers quite a lot lately (All-Dog Network Announcer being the latest example), and though the talk boxes seem to be helping, it still concerns me. Any thoughts on how to best deal with this, or a way for you guys (and for that matter, anyone else concerned in such reverts) to better communicate and reach, if not a full agreement, at least a compromise? --Andrew, Aleal 18:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I was sure that Federico Felini was his name; that's what it said in the credits. But then I found [this].
 * As for voices, how about a "Name That Performer" section? -- MuppetDude 20:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If the credits said Fellini, I'd go with that, though we can always make a redirect. I admit in my own research and film writing, I prioritize screen credits unless they are contradicted by known confirmable facts, or with character names, if a more precise appellation is available within the context of the film. The PBS schedules are incredibly useful for plot and date info, but especially given that it's likely a translation from a Spanish presskit or whatnot, "Pelini" may be a typo. As for the other, Name that Performer had occurred to me, we'll see what Dean says. To be honest, while we try to be accurate, total accuracy isn't always possible, and quite a lot of the performer info is played by ear, though discussion and insider info helps (as re our conversation over Kippi). So my concern is to either list the most likely possibility at the present time, or at least just stop back and forthing. --Andrew, Aleal 20:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Whoops; I meant closed captioning, not the credits. Sorry for the mix-up. -- MuppetDude 20:13, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah! Hmmm. Close captioning is just as fallible or even moreso than press listings. Well, I'll let you decide. Maybe a note on the sources for both names, unless listening to the episodes again suggests which letter it's closest to. I mean "efe" and "pe" aren't exactly close to each other, verdad? (Ah, Plaza Sesamo discussions always make me homesick). --Andrew, Aleal 20:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

We're casual
Hi Tony -- I just took out your comment about Rollie K on the Name That Puppet page... I'm hoping that she'll get a user name and start posting here, so I want us to be cool about it for now and not draw a lot of attention to her. Vard is also a former Henson builder, and I think he probably told her about the wiki. -- Danny Toughpigs 21:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I recognized my slip-up after I made it, but I didn't get to change it in time; sorry about that. I'll delete it if it's still there. -- MuppetDude 15:48, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it's cool. I got it. -- Danny Toughpigs 16:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Sloth Performer
Hey, Tony. Just a heads up that Sloth is currently in time out, as you and Dean have been reverting each other regarding who performed the character. You might want to check out the talk page and discuss your sources for Frank Oz. --Andrew, Aleal 22:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Talk page signatures
Hey Tony: I saw you posting on the Rechov Sumsum talk page, and I realized that I didn't tell you the trick of talk pages. You make the signature by adding four tildes, like this: ~. That automatically creates your signature and a date stamp. Also, when you're replying to somebody, you can put a : in front of your reply, and that makes an indent. There's more on How to use Talk pages. Let me know if you have any questions! -- Danny Toughpigs 01:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * So this is right?--MuppetDude 17:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, perfect! -- Danny Toughpigs 17:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks again for the help!--MuppetDude 17:34, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem, I'm glad you're here. -- Danny Toughpigs 18:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I just added the list for SS show 666, using Guillermo's technique. I'll be adding more soon.--MuppetDude 18:07, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tony!
Hey, there you are, all signed in and everything. Welcome! I put you on the Community portal page as Tony M... If you want to add your last name or your real last initial, then please do. I just put in M for MuppetDude, cause I don't know your last name.

I saw you were struggling with the performer box on the Robbie Sinclair page, so I made a new template for characters with three performers. I've been meaning to do that for a couple days, but I forgot about it. So I fixed the Robbie Sinclair page the way you wanted. Here's the code:. The regular performer box template is just "performer", and for two puppeteers it's "performer2". So now you can go ahead and add more three-person characters if you want! -- Danny Toughpigs 19:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * My last name is Whitaker. -- Tony MuppetDude


 * Cool, thanks -- I'll put that up! -- Danny Toughpigs 19:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)