User:MuppetArchives/Current Events 24 (January-February 2008)

Archive of Current events.

Monaco skin
Hi folks... I'm testing out the Monaco skin that's hopefully going to launch on Wikia soon. So if you see some pages in Recent changes that say "Monaco" in them, that's what I'm playing with. They don't affect anything right now. -- Danny (talk ) 23:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Does this mean image files will be randomly replaced with Grace Kelly photos? -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 23:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You say that like it's a bad thing. -- Danny (talk ) 00:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It is if you'd rather see random pictures of Phyllis Diller. -- Ken (talk ) 05:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

notable observation
Just thought I'd bring some attention to this. —Scott ( talk ) 21:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Accent marks and non-English characters
Andrew and MuzikJunky were talking on MuzikJunky's talk page about using Japanese characters and accent marks, and I think it's worth bringing that to the whole group to discuss. We've developed a system that's more or less consistent, but we've never actually written it down in one place.

Here's some examples of how we use non-English characters on the wiki:


 * Sesamstrasse -- There was some discussion of this when the wiki first started, because it can also be written as Sesamstraße. Partly, there was some confusion about whether Sesamstraße is still in current use in Germany. We decided to go with referring to the show as Sesamstrasse, because it's easier for searching and linking. The article begins: "Sesamstrasse (Sesamstraße in German)..."


 * For other international shows, we've used titles with accents -- Barrio Sésamo, Susam Sokağı, and Świat Elmo -- when the accent is over a character that's used in English. We do the same for characters and actors, including Uli Von Bödefeld, Geir Børresen and Minik Kuş. We alphabetize these names as if they were non-accented -- Świat Elmo is alphabetized under S. To make searching and linking easier, we make the non-accent translation a redirect -- so Plaza Sesamo leads to Plaza Sésamo.


 * For non-Roman characters, we use the Roman spelling -- so the Chinese and Israeli Sesame Street are referred to on the wiki as Zhima Jie and Rechov Sumsum. The beginning of each article includes the actual spelling as "Zhima Jie (芝麻街 in Chinese)". (One odd exception is Glædelig Jul, Elmer -- do we consider æ to be more like the ö in Bödefeld, or more like the ß in Sesamstraße?)

The general rule is that we use non-English characters when it's an accent over an English character, but not when it involves unfamiliar characters like Sesamstraße or 芝麻街. This is an English-language wiki, so we're using translations when the alternative would be difficult for English speakers to read or navigate. Technically, it would be more accurate to call it רחוב סומסום instead of Rechov Sumsum -- but if we're going for strict accuracy, then every proper noun on that page would be in Hebrew. At a certain point, you have to translate.

For proper nouns that use non-English characters, we give the correct spelling in parentheses when we know it -- as with Sesame Street (Japan) or Kippi Ben Kippod. We don't have these for some articles, but that's just because nobody's added it yet.

On MuzikJunky's talk page, he and Andrew were talking about putting accents on Japanese words like Yôko and Tôkyô. I like the way that Wikipedia handles it -- names are written without the accents for article titles and text, but the accents are noted at the top of the article. The Yoko Ono article starts with "Yoko Ono Lennon (小野 洋子 Ono Yōko)", and Tokyo says "Tokyo (東京, Tōkyō)". In all other uses, the words are written without accents.

Using that standard, our article on Yoko Haruta would not use the accents for the title, and the article would begin: "Yoko Haruta (春田洋子, Haruta Yôko)". We don't have an article about Tokyo, so we would use the common English spelling.

What do folks think about this? Are there ways that we're not being consistent or accurate? -- Danny (talk ) 19:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Æ is a standard vowel in the Danish and Norewgian language and is therefor considered as a uniqe letter and it have it's own place in the alphabet. (Sweden uses Ä instead of Æ). The same goes for the other Nordic letters, they are also vowels Å and Ø/Ö and have their own place in the alphabets. The difference on these compared to the German Ö or ß is that the nordic letters are not dependent on the grammar thats used in a certain sentence. It is possible to replace the letters. Å with Aa and Æ/Ä with AE, this preserve the unique sound the letters have in the Nordic languages. Ø/Ö is commonly replaced with O. However the letter loses its unique sound this way. For instance the letter Ø and Ö also spells "island" while O don't spell anything. Henrik ( talk ) 20:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I’m all for accents and macrons. I used circumflex accents instead of macrons to denote Japanese long vowels (like IMDb does) because I can’t access the latter without searching for the character(s) extensively. And I was the one who added the Hebrew for Kippi Ben Kippod and the Japanese for Sesame Street Japan. Peace. —MuzikJunky 03:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * As Danny said, this is an English-language wiki. As such I tend to believe we should use the standard English alphabet that people can find on their keyboards either directly for the article title, or in a redirect.  People searching for information should be able to find it without using special characters or having to know the accent system and/or alphabet of every language and romanization thereof which has a Sesame Street.  It's simply not practical to expect an average person of any linguistic background to know that.


 * However, I think it is somewhat arbitrary to say that accents on normal characters will be used, but unusual (ie non-English) characters like ß won't. I have to pull up the same character chart to find accented English or Greek characters so I don't think it's actually any harder even to create the page.  Assuming there are no technical (web address) issues, I think it would be good to use both accents and non-English characters in titles, and create keyboard friendly redirects for both.


 * For the specific Japanese case, I think Andrew's argument that the actors themselves aren't using the circumflex accents on their own webpages carries quite a bit of weight in suggesting to me that whatever proper Japanese romanization rules might require, the more casual language typically used online doesn't need those accents.   I see no reason why we need to be more formal than the native speakers of a given language; that feels like overcompensation.  -- Wendy  (talk ) 03:49, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a non-arbitrary reason to allow Ö or é in an article title and not ß. As an English speaker, when I read "Geir Børresen" or "Plaza Sésamo", I have a way to sound it out in my head. The "Geir Børresen" in my head doesn't sound exactly like the way a Norwegian person would say it, but at least I can read it and move on. But if I see "Sesamstraße", I'm stumped. -- Danny (talk ) 18:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point. I'd forgotten that part.  -- Wendy  (talk ) 19:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally I think that it would be a shame to leave out the Nordic letters, but then again maybe its because I'm Danish...I can see the point in having a redirect page with the replacements for the Nordic letters. But as a Dane I would not like to see the Nordic pages changed. However I agree in not using ß in articles. The reason behind this is that the title card of Sesamstrase don't use the ß and as I mentioned before its use is dependent on how a sentence is build in German. So since it's a English languaged wiki the grammer rules can not really be compared. About replacing "Ø" it could work with "O", but keep this in mind, making this change would bascially mess up the words. Imagine how it would be like to read English words were "I" was replaced with "T", a different letter and a different sound. Henrik ( talk ) 21:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, Henrik... I don't think anybody's suggesting that we take the Nordic characters out. (Unless I'm misreading something.) We're just looking at the way that we're currently using non-English characters, and figuring out how to apply those guidelines to some new cases. As far as I know, we're not planning to change anything on the Danish/Norwegian pages. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 00:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Then, for Japanese, if it isn’t too much trouble, only the initial boldface romanization with the original Japanese should use macrons or circumflex accents. Other occurrences in the main text and the article titles can be written without them. Peace. —MuzikJunky 21:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * For Japanese, I still prefer Danny's suggestion, ala "Yoko Ono Lennon (小野 洋子 Ono Yōko)." It makes more sense when the subject's themselves aren't using any macrons in their websites or publications. But just using the macrons once would be the next best thing, so I'd be okay with that depending on overall consensus on Danny's initial proposition. Also, with articles like Japan, I think all macrons and the Japanese text can be removed. The info is widely available elsewhere, and I don't like the idea of including such text for any and all instances of a Japanese or Hebrew person or place, just for shows, actors, or characters relevant to Muppet Wiki's mission and where the info isn't as easily accessible. --<font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I changed Yoko Haruta to fit the Wikipedia model; I think it works great this way. I'm okay with the Japanese characters for Japan, as long as we're only giving the characters for the subject of the article, and not for other Japanese words that occur in the text. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Works for me! -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Then someone shouldn’t have removed the Japanese for Seiji Ozawa. Billed that way or not, we have to be consistent if we’re gonna take care of Japanese names that way. Peace. —MuzikJunky 06:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That was done by Scott... I think it's possible that he hasn't been following this conversation. I'll leave him a message... -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I took out the Japanese characters for Seiji Ozawa. He's never gone by his Japanese name professionally like Yoko Haruta. If we're translating names by where their parents were born, I should be signing my name Scott Hansön. —Scott ( talk ) 15:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In Japan, where they never use romanized Japanese for their native people’s names, Ozawa’s name is always written in its native characters. Peace. —MuzikJunky 06:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Cosby Show
I can't view them, as they're restricted to US viewers only, but Carsey Werner has posted two clips from the "Cliff's Nightmare" episode, on their official Cosby Show YouTube thread. Links are available in the intro to The Cosby Show article. -- Zanimum 17:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Autographs
Would anyone have a problem if we did a gallery article featuring the various Muppet autographs? There are already two great examples (Example 1, Example 2) I found in a quick search, plus I added one more (My addition)(which can be deleted as I just found it at the fan club page). I just thought it might be a fun little page, but didn't know if since one hadn't been done already if it was frowned upon for any reason. -- ''<font color="Purple">Nate (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 21:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that's a great idea. I don't know what category it would be in -- maybe one of the Lists categories? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm thinking Lists myself. In fact, that was the first place I looked to see if one exsisted.  I will put that at the top of my list now of stuff to explore.  -- ''<font color="Purple">Nate  (<font color="Purple" size="1">talk ) 21:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Would Muppet performers and Sesame Street cast be okay too, or would that be a separate page? I have a hologram image of the street from season 35, signed by Roscoe Orman and Kevin Clash (plus Elmo). What were the first two signatures from? I have Beany Bunny, Kermit, and Piggy's signatures from Disney, but Pops was never there. Was it the Muppet Magazine? --  Zanimum 17:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Muppets No-Nonsense Show
I'm guessing this wasn't real? --  Zanimum 18:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of it. It may exist, but I've noticed that vandals have become particularly voracious of late, going to extreme lengths in order to filter mis-information onto the web where it won't be contested. IMDb is just such a place. —Scott ( talk ) 18:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Barney was a cast member of Sesame Street for about a year, a bit back, so I know it's quacked often. --  Zanimum 19:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, a search for the phrase brings up 2 or 3 other user-submitted entries in foreign languages, listed as a 1975 production. It's possible that this is the translated title of The Muppet Show: Sex and Violence, which I don't think was distributed overseas before The Muppet Show: Season One. These are all just guesses based on what's available out there in Internetland. On a related note, I have seen WP users trying to "correct" or remove the Sex and Violence entry from various articles, noting something about being sexually explicit. —Scott ( talk ) 19:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Just seeing that now, re: Sex and Violence on Wikipedia. That is a possibility, that it's a translation. --  Zanimum 19:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

embedding video
Ӝ and Guillermo added embedded videos to a couple articles today, which I've taken out for now. My feeling on them is the same as our policy on linking to YouTube in the first place: that it's impossible to keep track of what's going to be removed this week and what's still going to be live. Embedding them adds two more downsides. 1) It's impossible to keep track of which pages on the wiki are using the embed code, and 2) when YouTube deletes the video, not only do we have a screesnhot that doesn't wholly represent what we're trying to display, but it's also broken. I would propose that we don't embed videos on the wiki at all, and only link to them under the strictest adherence that we apparently use for adding them now. —Scott ( talk ) 22:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with you completely. I've never liked over reliance on YouTube links anyway, and as noted, embedding adds more problems. Plus, in general, embedded videos is something that has come to be associated with blogs and MySpace and other personal sites, which is fine. However, on a Wiki which tries to be reasonably encyclopedic and not just a collection of diverting entries and cool videos, I think they make the articles look ugly and are just as unnecessary as commercial links to buy DVDs or toys. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, Scott was telling me that Google search results for the Wiki's articles were lower than Wikipedia's, and that we could raise them with the help of the videos I posted on YouTube. If we embed them here, then the Wiki would show up in the list of sites which the video links to.  What's bad about that? --MuppetVJ 23:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the idea, Guillermo, and I can't speak for Scott, but I don't know that it's worth it just to increase Google search results. If anything, Google search results bring *more* attention to YouTube videos and thus to us, and thus increasing the possibility of a video being flagged for removal for whatever reason or the user being targeted; I know you've been safe so far, G., but you're one of the exceptions, and it has enormous potential to get messy for all concerned. If the goal is just to help Google ranking, we'd actually be better off embedding videos and linking to the relevant articles on a single page, where one could keep an eye on them. It still strikes me as risky, unnecessary, and problematic, especially as it encourages other users to embed videos, which with something like MADtv, are tangential at best and even more likely to be pulled for copyright infringements. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 23:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * What about videos of talk show or otherwise improvised appearances? Can there be limited acceptance of these elsewise not commercially available video files? (I don't know of any video that qualifies, but say Cookie Monster greeting Ann Curry on her birthday, on The Today Show''.) -- Zanimum 18:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

New milestone
The main page hasn't quite caught up with the statistics, but as of now, Muppet Wiki has just broken the barrier, reaching 16,001 articles, a little late for New Year's Day but still a nice way to bring in 2008. Congratulations, everyone! It may seem like we've blanketed the field, and a lot of it has been covered, but there's still plenty of minor Muppets to be added, merchandise which hasn't been documented, celebrities to be celebrated, plus tons of references to be discovered, amongst many other things (plus plenty of expansion and refining on existing articles). So here's to a fun and productive year as we head towards 17,000. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 08:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That's awesome! Bigger and better all the time. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 08:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

New CD's
I just wanted to mention that the first 2 CD's from Koch Records are now listed as coming out on March 4th. They will be reissues of Platinum All-Time Favorites and Elmopalooza! I can't confirm the tracks yet, but I'm hoping they're at least the same as, or maybe even longer than, the originals! More details as I (and the other record hounds) find them! -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Sesame Street Rose Parade float
Happy New Year, everybody! Did anybody happen to tape the Rose Parade? The float from NAMM (I think it stands for the National Association of Music Merchandisers, an association of musical instrument retailers) had a Sesame Street-themed float, and Bob was on it! I didn't see any working Muppets on it, but there were some characters made out of flowers, like Elmo and some others. I hadn't heard about it, and it was over so fast, I didn't have time to write about it this morning. I'm going to dig some more tomorrow, but I just wanted to mention it in case anybody taped it. Thanks! -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * btw, a while back, I added a bunch of info on this float, based on what obvious from the Flickr photos of it, and this claim that Bob was on the float. --  Zanimum 18:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)