User:MuppetArchives/Current Events 22 (October-November 2007)

Archive of Current events.

Navigation buttons 2
I'm going to try a straw poll about the navigation buttons, to see how people are feeling about them. This isn't a vote, where the majority wins -- it's just a way of assessing how people are feeling about the question, so we know whether to keep going with the discussion or drop it.

The proposal is to put these navigation buttons on the main page, under the welcome box. The purpose is to give new readers some familiar-looking links at the top, which will help them to make that first click and start exploring the site. The "Today on Muppet Wiki" entries are really fun, and they show off the amazing depth of our content, but they're not necessarily newbie-friendly. (You can see a similar set of buttons on Flash Gordon Wiki and Jouryneyman Wiki.)

So the question for this straw poll is: Should we add this set of buttons to the main page? Your vote is non-binding, and for discussion purposes only.

Yes, add them to the page

 * Danny (talk ) 10:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ken (talk ) 01:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Wendy (talk ) 02:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Joe (talk ) 16:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * —Scott ( talk ) 02:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but with modifications

 * Peter (talk ) 16:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC) - I like the buttons much better with the Initial Caps instead of ALL CAPS.  But after clicking on the first three, I think they work better if they direct to the The Muppet Show, Sesame Street, and Fraggle Rock main pages instead of the Category pages.  Thoughts?

No, we don't need them

 * Henrik 11:19, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Brad D. 04:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC) - I think bringing back, and building, the portal concept that would encompass more of what the wiki has to offer would be better than just picking 6 limited and somewhat narrow categories.

Feel free to keep adding other comments and thoughts. -- Danny (talk ) 10:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * So it seems like there's more sentiment towards having the buttons (or something like them) at the top of the page. Peter likes the buttons, but wants to direct them to the article pages, which I could get behind.


 * Henrik votes no, because (as he says below) it duplicates the links at the top of the page for people using the new Quartz skin.


 * On the "no" side, Brad suggests building up the portal concept, which is another good option. Brad, how would you see it fitting on the main page? The buttons that are on Portal:Main go all the way across the content area -- so if that's at the top of the main page, then it bumps into the picture. This is what the Portal looks like with our regular 250px picture, and without it:


 * So there's a couple different ways to handle that. We could take out the top picture, or shrink the Portal buttons, or make more rows of Portal buttons down the page.


 * Now, that's a whole other conversation, with different options to consider, so I'd like to make a proposal. I'd like to add the six buttons at the top of the page, and as Peter says, make the top three point to the article pages.


 * Then we can have a separate conversation about the portal concept. If we get a good portal design together and decide to swap that in for the buttons, then we can do that. Meanwhile, we'll have something up on the page to help people navigate around.


 * The buttons could turn out to be a temporary step on the way to a more thought-out portal system, or they could turn out to be permanent, if we like them and can't figure out a portal design that we like better.


 * Can I get some thoughts on this? If people are okay with that, then I'll put the buttons on the main page. -- Danny (talk ) 18:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, to me, the buttons and the portal setup seem to be 2 ways of showing the same thing. You have a few broad choices, and then your choices lead to more choices, etc.  So I'm torn about which to go with, but I'm for whatever makes the site easy to use.  I like having all of the various logos up front, but I just like logos.  So if they don't fit, I'm okay with the buttons, too.


 * Just as a side comment, I don't really like the idea of the shows going to the main page, because (for example), if I'm looking to see what CD a certain Sesame Street song is on, and I hit Sesame Street, and then I'm greeted with a long page about the history of the show, where do I go from there? Or am I misunderstanding what Peter was saying? -- Ken  (talk ) 03:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually I kinda like the buttons, they've grown on me, (so maybe I should have voted "yes, but with mods"). But I think using the buttons to link to a portal pages would be better than just sending newbies into a specific category. Something like Template:NavbuttonsPortal‎ is what I would prefer to see down the road. A portal allows for a better organization of the information and a better overal presentation. Plus I think many newcomers are just as interested in the Muppet films, or Muppets Tonight, or any of other stuff from the Muppet Show family of characters and just linking to The Muppet Show (or that category) doesn't really cover that. Portals can really show newbies the depth and breadth of the wiki in a way that a single category or article can't always do. However the portals are still in need of work - so using the buttons as they are now and then switching them to links to the portals later on would be okay with me. -- <font color="Blue">Brad D.  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That's funny, because the more that you're working on the portals, the more those have grown on me. :) I agree that if we build up the portals, they'll be a better way of presenting the info. Linking from the main page to a category page really isn't ideal -- the category pages are cold-looking and not easy to grasp on first glance. So I'm happy to see the navigation buttons as a temporary step towards a full portal structure.


 * Obviously, there's lots to figure out about the portals -- lots of choices to make. I posted the navigation buttons on the main page, to give them a tryout. If we want to keep tweaking those, we can continue that discussion here. I'm also going to move the discussion from Talk:Portal:Main (sandbox) to a new thread here. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 10:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Navigation buttons
Scott developed this cool navigation buttons template for some of the other wikis we're working on, like Reaper and Journeyman. On those wikis, the buttons are on the main page, and help to direct readers to where they want to go.

We've always had a problem with that on this wiki. "Today on Muppet Wiki" is awesome -- but as the entry into content for new readers, it's a little intense. It would be nice to offer people an entry into the basic stuff before they get into the birthday cards and Plaza Sesamo voice actors. So what do you guys think about adapting this idea for our front page?

For this example, I posted four possible buttons that we could use, but there's lots of ways we could go with this. For most screens, three buttons will fit on one line. I think the most we should use is six buttons on two lines, so we'll need to be strategic about our choices.

What do you guys think? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that works. It excludes the Creature Shop stuff, though, but maybe we can find another way. Really, while a lot of people probably look for songs, I'd be inclined to substitute the general TV Shows category. -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:19, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I like the button idea, but I was wondering if this would this replace the portal idea that people were talking about a while ago. Whatever happened to that? -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think some of those are too specialized (like Muppet Songs for "songs"; Fraggle & Sesame had lots of songs too). I would take out Songs and Merchandise and probably Characters also; I just don't feel like those should be starting points.  I like Andrew's idea of linking to the TV Shows category, and then maybe put in a Creature Shop button to get that stuff, an possibly a International for the sixth.
 * Ken, I think the portal never got finished as we all get distracted by other stuff. -- <font color="Blue">Wendy  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I noticed that Merchandise went to all the merchandise, grouped by show, so maybe the Songs and Characters can go to a list of all the shows, and then people can go from there. Other than that, I can't think of what else to add.  I guess if people know a character's name, but not what show it was from, they can still use the Search box. -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry I've been absent from this conversation; it's been a busy and distracting week. You're right about linking to the more general songs category -- that makes sense.


 * I like linking to Muppet Characters, because I think when people come to the site, that's often what they're looking for. It includes Muppets from all of the shows, and it's a very enjoyable list to browse through. I think that's the kind of fun that readers are expecting when they get to the site.


 * Here's another possibility... What do you guys think?


 * The benefit of this version is that it links to the Quality articles category, which means it can present a more general cross-section of our content -- including songs, merchandise, Creature Shop stuff, etc. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 12:17, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Another question is: Should the "Muppet Show" button go to The Muppet Show, or the Muppet Show category? Which one would readers expect to see? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 12:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd say The Muppet Show article, since with the category re-organization, it links directly to the main category at the bottom. I like the Quality Articles idea, but as of now, there's no way of finding any Creature Shop related stuff at all from there (though at least one each of songs and merchandise are represented). While I'm not necessarily angling for a Creature Shop button, I still think a link to TV Shows is useful as an entry portal, considering how many shows fall outside of the three main ones on the banner, and through cross-categorizing and internal links, from there, it's easier to get to everything else (Creature Shop, Bear in the Big Blue House, Muppet Babies, etc.) -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think we really need navigation buttons. We've got our most popular categories linked on the front page and a whole section for Quality Articles. —Scott ( talk ) 20:54, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, with all this discussion, I'd forgotten that was there (I don't scroll down past the "Today on Muppet Wiki" very often). So that's a good point, but likewise, maybe we could try to make that current list a little more visible; if I forgot it was even there, I wonder how many casual visitors overlook it. As important as Quality Articles is, maybe we could switch the two sections? -- <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a good idea. —Scott ( talk ) 21:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I think navigation buttons are very important. We do have the categories listed on the front page, but that's not what people see when they first come to the wiki. They need to be "above the fold".

I love Today on Muppet Wiki, and I think it's a fantastic way to demonstrate the richness and freshness of our content -- but it's got to be disconcerting for new readers to show up and see all those unfamiliar names right at the top. I consider the nav buttons to be something that we've needed for a long time. Scott, if you don't think we need it, would you actually object to having them?

I would be okay with adding a TV Shows button. The problem is that I'm not sure a button that just says "Quality" will be comprehensible to readers... I'd like to highlight those, but I'm not sure how to shorten that button.

And if there's no Creature Shop stuff in the Quality section right now, then we ought to start nominating some! :) -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 16:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If we do TV Shows, Movies, Songs, Characters, Merchandise, and Best of, I think that should cover everything. Then, the stuff could split off from there.  Otherwise, if we try to categorize it by show name, some of the lesser-known shows will get left off.  Do we have to stop at 6 buttons?  Or, if we find that we can't narrow it down to 6, could we put the category list across the top, instead of farther down? -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's okay for some things to be left off. The point of the buttons is to greet new users, and help them find content that they'll find interesting right away.


 * The question we need to ask is: What would a brand-new reader expect to see on Muppet Wiki?


 * To put myself in that place, I can imagine a franchise that I have vaguely fond feelings for, but not a real expertise in -- let's say, Looney Tunes. If I went to the Looney Tunes wiki and wanted to poke around a little, what would I want to see?


 * For me, I'd probably want to look for Daffy Duck, my favorite character, and see what they say about him. I'd be interested to see a list of all the cartoons they have on the wiki. I'd want to see something special and impressive, like pages with lots of images, or something funny. Once I've seen those three things, then I'd feel comfortable finding my way around on the wiki, because I'd have a sense of the kind of thing that's there.


 * So the buttons aren't a way to give a broad overview of the wiki's architecture -- they're there to give a little taste of what we have, so people feel comfortable exploring. Now that I think about it that way, I like the idea of the top row linking to pages, and the bottom row linking to categories. That gives both the taste of content, and a sense of the breath of the wiki. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I like the idea of the buttons, but I don't like the buttons themselves. They seems stylistically out of sorts with the main page.  That said, I think that if we do add buttons, it should be for Muppet Show, Sesame Street, Fraggle Rock, Characters, TV Shows, and Best Of.  I don't think Songs and Merchandise should be as prominent.  -- <font color="Blue">Peter  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I made a new version. The TV Shows category actually isn't that friendly of a click, because it doesn't lead to a list of Henson TV shows... it leads to more categories, so you have to click "TV Shows", then "Creature Shop TV Shows", etc. There's some ugly stuff on there too that would be confusing to new readers, like "Programming Blocks", "International Programming Blocks", "Unfinished TV Shows"... It's not first-click material.

So I directed the "TV Shows" button to the Episode Guides category, which is more newbie-friendly and gives people a nice list of all the major TV shows.

Peter, we can work on making the buttons look different... Is there anything specific that you'd suggest that would make them fit in better? What is it that's out of place -- the color, the shape, the text? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I like that last set of 6 much better. I think what I find out of place on the buttons is using all caps; it's aggressive, and not something we have anywhere else.  -- <font color="Blue">Wendy  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, that makes sense! How about this one? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the buttons are needed at all. If people use the new skin, you have the 3 most important categories on the top Characters, TV Shows and Quality articles. And finally I don't really think they fit into the layout of the front page. Is it possible for you to add more categories on the top of the new skin design? I think that solution would be better than the buttons. Henrik 20:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No, we can only have eight links up at the top. (For folks who don't know what we're talking about, go to your preferences, and choose one of the Quartz skins.) I'm glad to have those now, although I'd still like to have prominent links to TMS, Sesame Street and Fraggle Rock on the main page.


 * It does seem like I might be the only person who's jazzed up about this idea, though. Is the general feeling that people would rather not bother? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I like the buttons, too. While some of the stuff on the top may duplicate the buttons, as well as some of the stuff on the side, I like the idea of helping people who have never been to a wiki before, and giving them someplace easy to start from.  So I think the buttons are a good idea. -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Main page design
Sorry if this is off-topic, but now that I'm looking at everything on the front page, I'm noticing that there's kind of a big white space under the attention box, next to Kermit and the Category list. Could we maybe move Kermit back to the center, or expand the Category list so it goes all the way across? To me, it just looks weird having a hole there, like we can't think of enough stuff to put there. -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 22:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well that amount of white space will change depending on the height of the main page picture (and the length of the "Today on Muppet Wikis"). However for me (I have a widescreen monitor) everything lines up perfectly at the bottom, so adding anything more to the right will just make it unbalanced on the left (for me). So I don't know if we'll ever be able to make both sides balanced for everyone as the screen size, resolution settings, individual browsers, font size, personal wikia skin selection and other factors will all affect how the two columns will balance out for each user. -- <font color="Blue">Brad D. (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 20:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, okay. I just brought it up because some people were having trouble with the left side showing extra white space on some pages, although I didn't have that problem.  So I thought if my right side of the main page had a big space, it might be showing up for other people, too.  But if it's different for everybody, then never mind. -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Calling all obsolete formats!
I'm putting this here so everybody can see it. I'm currently in the process of expanding the pages on Muppet video releases (Videographies) to include every known release and cover variation. So if you have Muppet titles on VHS, Beta, laserdisc, or CED, check out the video pages to make sure we're as complete as possible. Take a look at what was available in the days before DVD! -- <font color="Blue">Ken (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 07:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That's really cool, Ken -- a great project! -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 18:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Danny! I wrote this late last night, and reading it again, I wanted to make my original post a little clearer.  I meant to say check out our video pages, and if you have anything that we're missing, from cover pictures to catalog numbers,  please help!  I'm scouring a bunch of sources, but sometimes it's hard to get information on stuff that's been out of print for up to 25 years! -- <font color="Blue">Ken  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)