Talk:Cross-dressing characters

Miss Kitty
Isn't she, arguably, female in her normal state? --Peter Pantalones 20:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Miss Kitty is a male. His name is a twist. In westerns, there's usually a happy girl named Miss Kitty. The twist of his debut is that Miss Kitty is male and is a a mean monster. -- Big V 21:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Ernie Girl in Sex and Violence
Would the Ernie Girl from Sex and Violence count as Ernie in drag? -- Big V 10:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. -- Danny Toughpigs 15:44, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure. If they intended the character to be Ernie in drag they would've used the Ernie puppet instead of a generic Whatnot with similar features. And she's a different color. I vote no. -- MuppetDude 15:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Doesn't she do an Ernie laugh? -- Danny Toughpigs 16:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but I think the joke is supposed to be that Bert would fall for a girl that looked/acted like Ernie, not that Ernie dressed up like a girl. I'm almost positive it isn't the Ernie puppet.  --Peter Pantalones 16:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, that raises a question I've had since this page began. I think it might be useful to make more of a distinction on the page, via two seperate sections, between Muppet "characters" in drag and Muppet puppets recycled or refurbished as female characters (especially since currently, the front text, which could use some cleanup, emphasizes the latter). Featherstone wasn't in drag playing The Queen, but rather, the puppet was refurbished as a female (and with a female performer even, for one appearance). It's been ages since I've sene the Two-Headed Monster mother sketch, but was it supposed to be Telly in drag or an altered version of the Telly puppet? Plus, then it would be easier to work in things like the recycling of Mudwell the Mudbunny (the puppet, but clearly not the character) as Murray the Minstrel's wife in The Muppet Christmas Carol, or reversals the other way, like Taminella Grinderfall's puppet becoming Tommy. Unless you think I'm overthinking this, but even within the productions themselves, I think there's a differenmce between suddenly showing Kermit or Wilkins and Wontkins in wigs and dresses (even if they are coded as purely female in those sketches) and Featherstone being redone as the Queen. For that matter, any objection to renaming this "Characters in Drag"? As off the top of my head, I can think of several Dinosaurs characters who wore drag (and Baby Sinclair's classic line, "She's too controlling. I want to wear a dress!") --Andrew, Aleal 16:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll say the purose of the page "If a male Muppet has girsl clothing on, it makes them dressed in drag". I know they're ment to be a different character when they do dress in drag, but they're still the same Muppet. I should change it to "Characters in Drag", if there are enough other characters who were in drag -- Big V 20:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, but The Queen isn't Featherstone in drag. It's based on the same puppet, but it's a completely different character.  To be drag, it would have to acknowledge some of the qualities of the underlying character.  Kermit as Ms. Mask is drag.  --Peter Pantalones 20:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I if I understand you correctly, all the Muppets except for Kermit as Ms. Mask aren't in drag, they're just different characters. -- Big V 21:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, you also have to take the camp factor into consideration. I still don't think the Queen belongs in this category, though.  Nor do I believe Fozzie does for his mom's appearance in The Muppet Show.  --Peter Pantalones 21:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe Fozzie should remain here. He's just like Kermit dressing up like Ms. Mask. -- Big V 21:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Peter and I definitely aren't saying that everyone but Kermit should be removed. The Queen and Featherstone are completely different, not Featherstone in drag. The Queen is refubrished, has become a full body puppet, and in her second appearance, is voiced by Richenda Carey. The Featherstone puppet was otherwise used only once on The Muppet Show, after the Queen debuted, and I'm not even sure he was named, so in that context, the point was not that it was Featherstone in drag, but a completely different character retooled from the same puppet. Similarly, Taminella and Tommy are different characters, not Taminella in a suit, and I'd argue that the Two-Headed Monster's mother is *not* meant to be Telly in a dress. In all the others, though, Fozzie is explicitly in drag as Miss Piggy, Gloat suddenly shows up in a dress, and so forth. If an established character shows up in a wig or dress as female atmosphere, that's drag. If the character sddenly switches gender, has a different performer, a new female name, and is generally treated as completely female, and not as a joke, then it's not drag. See Hilary the Owl becoming Timmy in another episode. That's not drag, that's recycling. Basically, Featherstone and, unless you can prove it to me, Two-Headed Monster's mother are my big bones of contention in the current list, though I think it's useful to keep the distinction in mind in the future. You wouldn't count Emily Bear or Grover's Mommy as Grover and Fozzie in drag, even if they're just spare puppets with wigs and stuff added, would you? And Peter, Shane didn't specify, but I presume he's counting Fozzie because in that same episode, he impersonates Miss Piggy, not because his mother shows up. --Andrew, Aleal 21:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh right. The Pigs in Space bit.  I thought you were talking about using an old Fozzie puppet to play Emily Bear in her first appearance.  Yeah, that totally counts.  Let's just be more specific on the article about that.  --Peter Pantalones 21:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC)