User:MuppetArchives/Current Events 06 (March 2006)

Archiving discussions from Current events. For more archived discussions, see the Current Events Archives category.

Kermitage Character Guide
On talk pages for certain characters and "Name That Puppet", I've seen some discussion about whether the Kermitage character guide is an adequate source or not... I say, it's not. I made it myself about four years ago, as a sort of crazy fan project to keep myself busy, long before there was a Wiki. Mike and Mar asked me if they could use it for Kermitage, and Mike added the photos; the reason why not every character is represented (and my list got edited) is because some characters were too difficult to get high quality photos of. Anyways, fans learn a lot in four years, and if I were in charge of the Kermitage character guide, there's about fifteen dozen incorrect performer names, episode references, character names and trivia that I would love to correct myself on! -- Jog 11:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC) Jog
 * I didn't know you made that! I was under the impression that they got stuff from official Henson files. I'm glad you said that -- I'd wondered about some of the mistakes. Still, it was a great job for four years ago! And hooray for the wiki, where we can correct old mistakes. -- Danny Toughpigs 13:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Addressing the Reader
I've seen a bunch of articles addressing the reader with "you" or "we", and they kind of rubs me the wrong way. This is sopused to be neutral and addressing the audience or including the writer as part of the audience seems odd. I've been changing the wording to remove the we's and you's as I came across it, but I saw a lot more today, and decided to bring it up to the community to discus and be aware of. I personally thing the you/we language should not be used in the Wiki (except in direct quotes, member discussions, or unforeseen exceptions). But below are some examples of what I'm talking about that I ran across today, and below them are just a simple revisions on how the you/we can be avoided.
 * "He was redesigned in Season 4, gaining white eyes, eyelids, and eyelashes, making him the Mr. Snuffleupagus we know today." (Mr. Snuffleupagus)
 * gaining white eyes, eyelids, and eyelashes, making him resemble the Mr. Snuffleupagus used today


 * "we only ever see her from behind." (Kermit's Mom)
 * she is only ever shown from behind


 * "This is the only time we see Yorick's hand." (Where Hunger Is From)
 * This is the only time Yorick's hands are seen


 * "…he showcases his happy feet, even though we never see his feet during this dance number" (Happy Feet)
 * he showcases his happy feet, even though his feet are never shown during this dance number


 * "You can see him sitting in the foreground…"(The Muppets Go Hollywood)
 * ''He can be seen sitting in the foreground"


 * "and if you look closely, you can see him mugging and reacting to practically every line of dialogue." (Episode 418: Christopher Reeve)
 * upon close inspection, he can be seen him mugging and reacting to practically every line of dialogue

How do others feel about this whole audience addressing writing style on the Wiki? Should "we" and "you" not be used, or am I just over reacting and be anal? – BradFraggle 07:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with you completely, and I've tried to re-write those whenever possible. Usually, something like "viewers can see" or "one may notice" or something like that strikes me as a sufficient substitute, or a rewrite, as you've done in your examples, i.e. "upon closer inspection" or "blank and blank is visible." --Andrew, Aleal 14:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree too. I'm glad you fixed all those! It's a fact of wiki life that people are going to be adding to pages who don't necessarily have a lot of writing experience. We want to encourage people to add information, even if it's not that polished. So then we come along and polish it later, like you have! -- Danny Toughpigs 14:33, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If this is a common occurance from regular contributors, it wouldn't be a bad idea to bring it up on their talk page. This has become a concern for certain users not italiciizing and not capitalizing the word Muppet. -- Scott Scarecroe 19:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I may be a bit guilty of it on some of the information I've added for Bear in the Big Blue House and if so, I apologize, as I do know better. Of course, I could, and might, argue a little that Bear is one of those audience interaction shows where by concept the viewer is considered a part of the show. Therefore, terms such as "us" or "we" could be considered appropriate. I guess what I may be trying to say is that to the degree that the program encourages viewer interaction with the show, it may sometimes be okay. But I agree it's a fine line. Agent0042 00:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree, though I understand your point. I reworded Bear for that reason. I admit, "Bear thinks you smell good" is an amusing sentence, but feels out of place in an encyclopedia. An alternative would be to use quotes, i.e. "Bear frequently greets television viewers with an appreciative 'You smell good'." The viewer and the encyclopedia reader are not always one and the same and should not be conflated or addressed in the same way (I lack cable, so I've seen maybe 15 minutes of Bear back in 1997, so I don't know if he likes my scent or thinks I need a new deoderant). Big Bag also often addressed the viewers directly, many book-and-tapes have the "You can read along with us" element, Sesame Street has the traditional welcome to the viewer and the "Brought to you today" closing, and even Muppet Show has the "We'll see you next time." It's a slippery slope, and can be easily avoided by either just using "the viewers," something like Brad suggested, or quoting the direct addresses by Bear or others when and as appropriate. --Andrew, Aleal 00:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, I'll keep that in mind. And sometimes some of the information I post is copied directly from what I write for TV.com, so I'll make sure to pay more attention to such issues when transferring it over. Agent0042 03:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I reworded the bit of trivia regarding Mr. Snuffleupagus' change in appearance, though I didn't say that he was rebuilt in season four to be the Snuffleupagus we know today, because I figure he's probably been rebuilt since then. --Minor muppetz 00:24, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Date links
Hey everybody: The Timeline pages are in good shape now, so feel free to start linking to them -- any year mentioned in an article can be a link! -- Danny Toughpigs 17:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I noticed the timelines yesterday when I was browsing through the recent changes. Neat stuff. I'll keep them in mind. Agent0042 00:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Ever consider day links? i.e. "this day in Muppet history", Muppet birthdays, etc. --  user:zanimum

Muppet
Don't forget to capitalize it! -- Scarecroe 19:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

DVD Template
I started a template for DVDs. I put it on The Muppet Show Season 1, The Muppet Movie and Where It All Began as a test. Since fields are dynamic and whatnot more fields can be added to it if their any suggestions or ideas for fields or format. Anyone got any ideas before I go around adding it and cleaning up all the DVD pages to include it? -- BradFraggle 17:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. How about languages? As a changing field rather than permanent like Scott did with the books, as we add more international merchandise, and since some overseas DVDs include English and the language of that country, but that's just a random idea. I like the template, though, especially the Region and disc number sections. --Andrew, Aleal 17:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I was just thinking that for the TV-Shows on DVDs it might be cool to have a number of episodes or something. -- BradFraggle 18:25, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I like that. Maybe a brief note, for non-season sets, which seasons are spanned, since indvidual releases sometimes jump around? Though that might be obvious if there's an episode listing in the entry, but it may be good info to have handy at a glance. --Andrew, Aleal 18:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Book template expansion
Okay, so I want to expand the Book Template to include page numbers and photographer credits. Fields are dynamic now, so if a book doesn't have info for the number of pages it has, it won't show up in the article. However, without a blank entry for "pages=" on all the articles that use the template, it won't work right. So I was going to go through all 188 pages that use it and add the extra fields. But I don't want to do that until I know we don't have any other fields we want added. Scott, Scarecroe 17:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, they may need a seperate template for themselves if it's easier, but many of the non-fiction books, like The Art of the Muppets, or even Miss Piggy's Guide to Life, have rather long credit lists, which almost invariably include at least one editor, and often an art director in addition to individual photographers or artists. I think Sesame Street Treasury and the like may have had project editors and such as well. --Andrew, Aleal 17:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)