Talk:Kermit the Frog

Attention
We've had nine months to work on it but our Kermit the Frog article is still a very weak one. This article has decent coverage of his role in Sesame Street but thats about it (he's done so much more than just Sesame). There is a ton of material to draw from in books (he's even written a few), on the web, and (or course) in other articles on the wiki. We really should fill this article out to a have a better depth and size. Kermit is the leader of the Muppets. The top frog. He deserves better. -- Brad D. (talk ) 03:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, good point. To help with that expansion process, I'll sketch out some areas that need some work. These sections would come after the Sesame Street heading:


 * Tales from Muppetland: Outside of Sesame, Henson worked on a number of specials to expand the Muppet universe -- and Kermit, as his signature character, appeared in all of them. In the pre-Sesame Hey Cinderella, Kermit was just another character -- but in the other Tales from Muppetland specials (Frog Prince and Bremen), Kermit moved into the role of host and narrator.


 * Muppet Show pilots: Kermit moved back into the chorus for the two Muppet Show pilots. He was part of the ensemble of Valentine Show, and then hardly appeared at all in Sex and Violence, turning over host duties to Nigel.


 * The Muppet Show:
 * Kermit as host and backstage manager (It would be nice to have some quotes about the parallel between Kermit's role and Henson's role.)
 * Kermit's relationship with Fozzie
 * Kermit's relationship with Miss Piggy
 * Did Kermit's personality change over the course of the show?
 * Episodes that focused on Kermit -- character moments


 * The Muppet Movie: Kermit's story


 * The Great Muppet Caper and The Muppets Take Manhattan: Kermit playing other roles, but still being the "boss" of the group


 * Post-TMS specials: I don't know how much there is to say, but Kermit did a bunch of specials and appearances after TMS...


 * Passing the torch: When Henson died in 1990, there was a lot of concern that Kermit would be retired. There's a lot to talk about here -- it would be good to have some quotes from news articles about the company's plans to keep Kermit alive. It would also be good to have quotes from Whitmire about the prospect of taking on the character for The Muppets Celebrate Jim Henson.


 * Rebirth: Kermit in The Muppet Christmas Carol -- a new voice, a new take on the character. Again, I think we could find good quotes on people's reactions to "the new Kermit" -- it would be cool to have some stuff from reviews of MXC.


 * The new Kermit: Muppet Treasure Island, Muppets Tonight, Muppets From Space -- Has the character changed? Has his role in the group changed? What's Kermit up to now?


 * So there you go -- lots of stuff to work on! -- Danny (talk ) 10:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I've added some things to this page. It could use some more work. I'll try to include a lot more later, if nobody beats me to it. --Minor muppetz 14:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Michael's done some great work on this, but I'm a little concerned with organization. I did a rewrite of the "Changing Performers" section, but it mostly has less to do with the change from Henson to Whitmire, and any performance differences/similarities, than how Kermit became more of a supporting player, and while there is a connection, it overlaps a bit with the section in the movies on his character roles. Rather than just dividing it by series/production category, I think it might be worthwhile to use Gonzo as a model. Some areas, like Sesame Street, Muppet Show, and the movies, deserve their own sections, but a lot of the others feel as if they could be merged and placed in clearer contrast with each other. Otherwise reading this article, it feels like you're leaping around and it's hard to clearly follow the character's development. For example, the brief section on Muppet Babies sticks out like a sore thumb, especially since "Baby Kermit" isn't the same as adult Kermit. Maybe discuss notable shifts in the portrayal, but right now, it's just a distraction, as is "Later Specials," which could either be discussed with specials in general (since his duties on The Christmas Toy and Mr. Willowby were basically identical to his Emmet Otter role), or later appearances, and perhaps even with the specials, a distinction between Kermit as narrator/wry side character in the storybook specials and Kermit in the Muppet Show-based universe needs to be made. Still, the article is definitely getting there, and it's much easier to work through these issues when you have some foundation text to start with, so kudos to Michael! -- Andrew Leal (talk ) 15:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi-ho!
When did Kermit start saying "Hi-ho, Kermit the Frog here"? When did he stop? -- Danny (talk ) 19:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I know he started saying it around when he appeared on "Sesame Street." He said it at the beginning of all his news bulletins on the show. BTW, I noticed that Kermit also says "Sheesh" and "Wait a second" a lot. --Wile e2005 02:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Did he ever really stop saying "Hi, ho, Kermit the Frog here?" Of course, I'm not too sure if he ever said it outside of Sesame Street, but if he only said it on Sesame Street, and hasn't said it since The Jim Henson Company sold the rights to the Sesame Street Muppets, then I guess he probably won't say it again anytime soon. And if he never said it outside of Sesame Street, then the last time he sad it was probably his last appearanc eon Sesame Street, in the first of the "Hurricane" episodes from 2001. I can't remember if he said that line in that episode, but I think he did. --Minor muppetz 14:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * He said it on the Muppet Treasure Island software game. However, I usually associate that line with Sesame Street, just as I associated Kermit from Sesame Street when I was little.

Attention
Someone added a whole slew of Trivia, much of which is not relevant to this article. I'm thinking most of it can be weeded out as it is, or should be, found elsewhere. -- Scott (talk ) 15:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I weeded pretty dramatically. That stuff was all taken from the Wikipedia Kermit the Frog article, where I guess they have lower standards for what counts as trivia. The Henson quotes were unsourced, and possibly made up. The stuff about college students making a plaster Kermit was too trivial even for a trivia section. The appearances stuff was a random list of four appearances, out of hundreds that he's made. I just kept the two notes that I thought were relevant. -- Danny (talk ) 15:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've heard versions of the two Henson quotes before. I'll keep my eye out for a source. -- Scott (talk ) 15:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to read it before I posted it (now that I saw read again it was dumb), I won't do it again.:( -- Ian (talk ) 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Filmography
I'm not crazy about the Kermit filmography. I think it's a little weird to have a list like that for such a major character. What do other folks think? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 12:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You could always put it in a list, like I did with Kermit Songs. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 13:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not crazy about it either, but I started it to better document what Kermit was and wasn't in during the early years, plus guest appearances and footage like the Playhouse Videos or the Muppet Babies Storybook Videos. I think that's important information, but I don't mind if we say Filmography: see Kermit's Filmography instead of keeping it on the list. -- <font color="Blue">Peter  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 14:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Double Collar
If the double collar premiered in Hey Cinderella, when did it permanently change to a single collar? -- <font color="Blue">Peter (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 19:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The start of The Muppet Show, I believe. Actually, I just got done watching the Muppet Show episode where Muppet Morsels mentions it. Chunk 19:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Kermit actually did have a single-collar before he had his double collar. He has only one collar in Hey Cinderella, the Sesame Street sales piece, and the first season of Sesame Street. I wonder when he first got his double-collar (my guess would be The Frog Prince). --Minor muppetz 14:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

When does Kermit become a frog?
We've been going back and forth on this page about when Kermit actually became a frog. He's definitely a frog by Sesame Street (1969) and Hey Cinderella (1970). Jim Henson: The Works says he was fully a frog in The Frog Prince (1971), but that's clearly not true. I think it would be good to have a little section on this page about when Kermit became a frog, once we get all the facts straight. So what do we know for sure? -- Danny Toughpigs 13:05, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It would also be nice to have sources for the Jim Henson info:
 * As Jim Henson described: "All the characters in those days were abstract".
 * Henson was most comfortable with Kermit as his main signature character because the puppet was the lightest in weight, and thus the most comfortable to use for extended periods of time. -- Danny Toughpigs 13:15, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Kermit was definitely a frog in "Hey Cinderella", complete with flippers; before that, the flipper-less Kermit was referred to as a frog twice in "The Muppets On Puppets" (1968). I guess that's the one we're looking for. -- Jog 13:49, 26 January 2006 (UTC) Jog


 * But doesn't Sesame Street predate Hey Cinderella? Does he have flippers there? I didn't know that about The Muppets On Puppets -- that's a great fact. I don't know if I have a copy of that... It would be nice to have the quotes. -- Danny Toughpigs 14:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * We've been trying to figure this one out for a while in the rumors section: Kermit's Froghood. -- BradFraggle 15:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, Cinderella was broadcast in 1970, but I think it was filmed earlier. I have seen a few websites that list it as being made in 1968 and some that say it was made in 1969. Kermit does have flippers in hey, Cinderella, as well as in the first season of Sesame Street. I have also read that The Muppets On Puppets was broadcast in 1970, but sicne it's in black and white then it must have been made soemtime in the 1960s. --Minor muppetz 16:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, good call, I forgot about tape dates. I checked the timeline at the back of Jim Henson: The Works -- it says that Hey Cinderella and The Muppets On Puppets were both filmed in 1968. Given the emphasis on Kermit's froghood in Hey Cinderella, I'd say that's the origin. I'll add that to the article, for now... -- Danny Toughpigs 17:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Kermit calls himself a frog in Muppets On Puppets, but it obviously predates Hey Cinderella. He is still wearing his sweater, with stumpy feet and no collar. It was definitley made before SS or Cinderella. As far as I know, the special aired as a part of the Adventure In The Arts series on PBS in 1968. I don't understand why they'd air it in '70. That information probably came from a rerun. Anyway, Kermit's first frog mention as far as we know is Muppets on Puppets. His collar and flippers appear in Cinderella. Scooter 21:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Kermit's birthday
Where does Kermit's "official" birthdate come from? -- Scarecroe 06:10, 28 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Submit to have the info removed without a source. -- Scarecroe 03:22, 30 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. I was just about to post the same thing. -- Toughpigs 03:44, 30 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * An anonymous user added May 9th as Kermit's official birthday again. Does anybody have a source for that? -- Danny Toughpigs 13:05, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * From NPR "Monday, May 9, 2005...It's easy being green... when it's your birthday: Kermit the Frog turns 50 years old Monday.". The May 9th Birthday is also stated here, here, and here. -- BradFraggle 15:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * NPR is good enough for me. -- Scarecroe 16:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * May 9th was also the premier of Sam And Friends, I assume that's where they get it from. Scooter 04:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Is there any evidence that Kermit actually appeared in the first episode of Sam and Friends? The Kermit stick puppet figure has three copyright dates on the bottom of his foot: 1956, 1976, and 1978. It's possible that he first appeared on TV in 1956, and not 1955 (then again, Jim Henson could have waited a year to copyright his characters, just like he waited four years to form a company). --Minor muppetz 01:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)