User talk:Toughpigs

Song Composers
I know that Rodgers&Hammerstein, the Gershwins, and Irving Berlin are responsible for lots of the songs used on the Muppet Show. Would pages for them a la Cole Porter be reasonable? Or was he given a page for some other reason? -- Wendy (talk ) 15:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I say go for it. I was planning on doing something like that at some point but got sidetracked.  -- Peter  (talk ) 15:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

ep-nav
Hey, what happened to the episode navigation on a bunch of the Muppet Show pages? Like Episode_117:_Ben_Vereen for example. Does it look all broken to you in Firefox? -- Scott (talk ) 14:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's shown up in a few places this morning. I think it might be related to the software upgrade last night. It seems like it goes away once you edit and re-save the page. -- Danny (talk ) 14:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Wonderful. Well, I fixed your TOC spacing issue. -- Scott (talk ) 14:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You did? It's hard to tell. -- Danny (talk ) 14:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Purge your cache and re-open your browser.
 * I fixed the broken episode naviagtion, too. -- Scott (talk ) 14:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay. How do I do that again? -- Danny (talk ) 14:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I figured it out. Hey, you did fix it! Look at that. You're a genius, thank you! -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 15:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Episodes About"
When you get a chance, take a look at the Sinclair pages (Earl, Fran, Charlene, Baby, and Robbie). Michael's been adding "Episodes About So and So" lists to the pages. I'm not sure how I feel about the filmography style listings on character pages in general, but I can understand wanting to trace every appearance by a minor or semi-regular character. Listing episodes that are "about" a given character, however, seems to me redundant, given the existence of a detailed episode guide; subjective (implying the final episode was "about" Earl); by nature, incomplete; and in general, though some episodes had a clear main character, a bit problematic for an ensemble show. I haven't talked to him about it, though, as I wanted a second opinion as to whether they could in fact be useful. <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 06:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that's worthwhile, as a step towards building an article. Not every episode focused on a single character, but lots of them did -- "Fran Live" is a Fran episode, "Scent of a Reptile" is a Charlene episode. If you want to know more about Charlene, then it's useful to get pointed towards the episodes that focused on that character. Ultimately, I think what works best is to take that list and expand it into a full article, writing about the important events in Charlene's character development. So the lists are kind of like what I'm doing with the Sesame Magazine notes -- they're just there for now. What do you think? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 11:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That makes more sense, but what about when the items in the list are already in the article? Robbie's page already briefly discusses "The Howling" and Charlene's page does the same with "Charlene's Tale" (and mentions most of the others, they just need episode links). Can I go ahead and take those out and just use "other episodes about so and so" until the lists are expanded on? And can I go ahead and remove the questionable or dual character episodes? One can say "We Are Not Alone" is about Robbie, I guess, but really it seemed to me to focus more on Earl's temporary eco awareness, which was caused by Robbie. I'm not sure "Endangered Species" is about anyone except maybe the Grapdelites, and "Changing Nature" wasn't really about anyone either (though Earl brings about the end, Charlene figures prominently in the first half). And if we are going to do this, then the lists need to be more thorough. The Fran list is just sad (and again raises a problem with dual focus episodes). <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as I'm concerned, you can do anything you like with them. Go nuts. I just wanted to say a word for the potential that they might be useful. I haven't actually looked at them, and if they're inaccurate or incomplete, then go for it. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, I assumed you had looked at them. Anyway, I've redone Earl Sinclair. Though there's more episodes "about Earl" to be added, right now the only three left in the list are the pilot, "The Mating Dance" (which is also on Fran's "about" list, and could use some explanation on both pages), and "Family Challenge" (and I'm honestly not sure if there's a way to integrate a typical "family goes on game show" plot into discussion of Earl's character, apart from showing his TV obsession which surfaces in every episode anyway). I'll try to tackle Charlne next (which needs a major rewrite anyway). <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 17:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I thought it would be good to list significant starring roles for the main Dinosaurs characters. I have also thought about listing starring roles in the pages for the main Fraggle Rock characters but haven't yet. Same with episodes of Muppet Babies that were about certain characters. I think it might be a bit much to list episodes that specifically starred major characters from The Muppet Show and Sesame Street, though. --Minor muppetz 04:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know about that. Under Beaker's Filmography, I thought it would be nice to indicate when he was a significant part of the Backstage plot, seeing as he was so often confined to Muppet Labs, at least early on.  I think this could work for other minor characters, too.  With Kermit, Piggy, Fozzie, Gonzo, etc., it wil obviously be easier to state the episodes they didn't appear in.  Even so, major events like Gonzo meeting Camilla or Gonzo leaving the show could be included in such a list of "Episodes About." -- <font color="Blue">Peter  (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know. I'm feeling better about the idea, but I'm still bothered about aspects. One is still the subjectivity. Some episodes, there's no doubt, especially if a character's name is in the title, but with others, it's disputable, like I said earlier, whether "We Are not Alone" was really "about" Robbie, and episodes which are dual focus (Fraggle Rock and "Marooned" for Boober and Red), it seems to me that would need to be better integrated into the article. Plus, maybe it's just my preference. Scott's recently said he doesn't actually like reading paragraphs. Me, a block of episodes listed at the end, when it could be integrated into the article or just left out, bugs me slightly. Maybe we should move this to current events. <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 04:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I just revamped Charlene Sinclair, and included all but one episode in the list in the main text (and included one Michael left out, "Charlene's Flat World," which is my other caveat about such lists). This time, I left the list in tact, but while I'm convinced they can be useful as placeholders or for minor characters, it seems redundant to me if the article can or already does discuss those episodes. <font color="Blue">Andrew Leal (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 05:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I can see both sides, so I'll suggest a compromise. If you're going to post an "Episodes About" list, then you should write a sentence for each episode on the list about what happens to the character in that episode. For example, for Miss Piggy, it might be:


 * Episode 211: Dom DeLuise: Piggy tries to impress Kermit by paying off the audience to cheer for her.
 * Episode 310: Marisa Berenson: Piggy tricks Kermit into participating in a wedding sketch -- with a real minister presiding over the ceremony.
 * Episode 502: Loretta Swit: Piggy spreads the rumor that she and Kermit have been secretly married. Furious, he fires her, and replaces her with guest star Loretta Swit.

I think that format makes the list more readable and more informative, and it also helps other people to check that what you're listing as a "Miss Piggy episode" really is one. What do you guys think? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 11:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The Muppet Show
Shouldn't The be capitalized in "The Muppet Show"? -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it should. Image:TbotmsDVD.jpg -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I was doing my Dean impression. Anyway, if it's in the middle of a phrase, the initial The doesn't get capitalized. See also: "Return of the Jedi". -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. The Muppet Show is a proper title. That's the way they've got it on the packaging, Jeeves. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, duh, they're not going to change the logo to turn it into a small T. Proper usage is to make that a small T in the middle of a phrase. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, your sleeve is on fire. Did you know that? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * P.S. Amazon says "The Best of the Muppet Show". -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 02:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * P.P.S. Who is Boo Mortmorkinson? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, stop putting the extra space in on top of Songs/Sketches. I'm going to fix that in the code. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Listen, you. Are you going to spend all night annoying me? -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * P.S. It's okay if you are; I've got nothing better to do. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I meant to go to bed hours ago. -- <font color="Blue">Scott (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Me too. I'll meet you there. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 03:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

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