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define

Can we get a clearer definition of this category? — Scott (talk) 21:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

This is just a starter. Basically, any historical figures, events, or history themed episodes. Like Space. I'll work on it more later, and add a definition, though it seemed sort of self explanatory, as a theme category anyway (in any other grouping, yeah, it would be confusing). There's tons of them, especially in Muppet Babies. I'll have to dig through TV Guide again, but apparently one specific Sesame Street episode even included a spot on the history of slavery in the US (!) -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I guess what I mean is that I'm having trouble picking up on the definition of the term "history." Is our intention to only include things before a certain year? And why? — Scott (talk) 21:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Why not? I mean "History" in the same way I'd mean Literature as defined in school and so forth. That's how it's treated in Muppet productions, after all (i.e. Episode 205: Out-of-This-World History or Great Moments in Elvis History). If you think it's a bad idea, I'll uncategorize it, but there's enough historical references to make it worthwhile. As for years, basically any thing which time and scholarship have deemed "historical." So Albert Einstein and Old-time radio would also fit in, but not, say, Laura Bush, not yet anyway. The range basically being not just that something occurred "before a certain year," but is treated as a historical event or place (so 18th century Bristol, England would also fit in). What would you call it? I honestly don't see this as any more problematic than "Space" or "Westerns." Andrew Leal (talk) 21:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
No need to get defensive, I'm just looking to define the category. It sounds to me like your intention is to group things that society has deemed as historical, is that correct? And that your limitation is that anything before Laura Bush was born is relevant, also correct? I'm just trying to open up the dialogue about it here now rather than wait until someone disagrees about what is and what isn't "historical." — Scott (talk) 22:16, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the "anything before Laura Bush is born" definition. I've given examples. I don't mean to sound defensive, but now I'm utterly confused. I mean history, the past, 1776, Caveman Days, anything which an encyclopedia would define as a historical past era or figure. If we say "anything before Laura Bush," that means Raymond Scott is history. Music history, in a sense, but not exactly something or someone that would be taught in a high school, elementary, or college "history" course. Do you want me to rename it? -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't want you to rename it, and I don't want you to have a problem with it. I just want to be clear. — Scott (talk) 01:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, now I'm not at all clear, but I guess the new definition works. It just surprised me a bit, since all of the theme categories are named in the broadest terms, from "America" (which has no definition at all) to "Sleep." I sort of understand that this might *potentially* be more controversial as far as what it covers, but one could say the same thing about Space. The category deals with "Space" as a popular cultural concept, not necessarily in the way even Wikipedia defines it. Sorry if it sounds like I'm having a problem, though I will admit the "anything before Laura Bush" thing came across as sarcasm. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
But, do you see my point? "History" is a subjective term, and I think we could do well to define just what we mean by it. And now that you mention it, Category:America could use a clearer definition. Otherwise I might ask, why isn't Jim Henson categorized there? He was an American. Likewise, I could say that he belongs in History. As an historical figure of importance to developments in puppetry, television, film, etc. But where the category is more specifically defined, we can't make those kinds of mistakes. You see? — Scott (talk) 01:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Space is equally subjective. I'm honestly not sure how to better redefine this. I did just add text to Category:Themes, which I think explains what I mean. To us, Henson and the Muppets are history, sure, but you would never see Kermit the Frog doing a "You Are There" spoof to interview Jim, Grover's time taxi in The Street We Live On aside. I mean things which within Muppet productions are clearly defined as "the past," as history, and as specifically using, spoofing, or otherwise based on actual real-life past events and people. Take a look at the new text on Themes, which I hope helps, as I admit, this is becoming frustrating. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
There you go, now you're getting it! Well, done :) — Scott (talk) 01:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Now I'm completely lost! Do you mean the theme category definition, or something in the above, i.e. what Muppets define as "the past"? The smiley is comforting, though! -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The umbrella definition in Themes, of course! — Scott (talk) 01:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
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