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While it would make the portals uneven, I personally think we should have a portal for Louise Gold, seeing as she is every bit as important as some other Muppeteers that have one. ---- Jesse (talk) 23:31, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

The portal is an adjunct, and omission isn't a slight. But part of it is covering core performers or those who played major core characters, and Louise Gold doesn't fit that. The current portal has Jim Henson, Frank Oz, Richard Hunt, Jerry Nelson, Dave Goelz, and Steve Whitmire, who can't be disputed as core players with several lead characters in more than one franchise (Muppet Show, Fraggle Rock), Bill Barretta, Eric Jacobson, and Brian Henson as the new guard (pictured with their relevant characters), Caroll Spinney, Kevin Clash, Fran Brill, Marty Robinson are Sesame core, plus Leslie Carrara as the major new kid on the block thanks to Abby, and Karen Prell and Kathryn Mullen for their lead Fraggles. Nothing against Louise Gold, but I can't see a picture of her and Annie Sue fitting in (Carmen Osbahr and Joey Mazzarino aren't there either, and both actually have a better stake than Louise Gold, or Noel MacNeal due to Bear). The portal is just to look pretty and at a glance showcase a sampling of the major performers and their main characters, so one can see "Oh, that's what Pepe/Abby/Mokey's person looks like," and I can't see Annie Sue or Fughetta Faffner exciting that reaction. So again, portals aren't all inclusive, just samplings, which we want to look attractive. They are subjective and choices had to be made, but I think the current line-up works well. Uneven-ness is not an option, so it would be dropping someone or adding four more and then someone else will be annoyed that Brian Muehl isn't there and on and on. Better to leave as is, I think, and again, it's not diminishing the work of Louise Gold or anybody else. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:09, November 29, 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I get it now! Thanks, Andrew! ---- Jesse (talk) 01:11, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Muppeteer Teams

I would like to create a list of Muppet Performers who have worked frequently as teams (Jim Henson and Frank Oz, Steve Whitmire and Dave Goelz) along with the characters teams they have performed. Is this something Muppet Wiki could use? Also, where would you suggest it be put? --Gribbaziggy 04:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really sure how such a list would work. I'd suggest you try it out in Sandbox first, or create a sample page and place it in Category:Sandbox. But right now, with the exceptions of the two you mention, it seems as if it might easily become subjective, and unless you have quotes about the pairing (which there definitely are with Henson/Oz and Goelz/Whitmire), it's hard to prove whether there's any significance to it, or just who happened to be available and worked reasonably well. On the whole, it actually sounds more like something which could make for a nice addition to the specific performer pages, in a short paragraph perhaps, than a seperate list. But again, tht's just my opinion, and because it's a bit unclear exactly what you have in mind without seeing a rough draft. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 05:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, I had a few ideas, actually. There's the well known performer teams such as Jim and Frank, Richard and Jerry, Steve and Dave, but then there are others that appear quite frequently that don't really get discussed. Richard and Jim had a few good pairings such as Statler and Waldorf, and they worked wonders together on Children's songs and stories. I don't know if something like this could actually work, but I'd deffenitely like to give it a try. I'll put it in the sandbox to see if I can work it out. --Gribbaziggy 00:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I added just a basic overview of it. Let me know what you think. --Gribbaziggy 00:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that's definitely a worthwhile thing to write about; the chemistry between Henson/Oz, Goelz/Whitmire and Henson/Barretta is important, and worth discussing. Rather than make separate pages about it, I think it would fit best if you added a section to the performers' pages. For example, on the Frank Oz page, we don't currently have a section on Oz's performances with Henson, and we could really use one. -- Danny (talk) 01:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay. That sounds good. I'm not entirely certain how to approach it that way, but I'll give it a try. --Gribbaziggy 02:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I just added to this onto Frank Oz. If you guys like the way it works, I can start adding this sort of thing to some of the other performers (maybe even one for Victor Yerrid and Drew Massey?) --Gribbaziggy 03:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I beliee that in the Muppet Central interview with Jerry Nelson, Nelson talks about his pairings with Richard Hunt. So there's another place to quote. --Minor muppetz 04:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Performer Info Formatting?

This has bugged me a bit for awhile, and I'm mentioning it here first since Current Events is a bit cluttered at the moment, and it specifically affects this category. There seems to be no set format for the credits listings, and there's a few issues related to that. One, the general "Muppet Characters" or "Sesame Street" characters lists. I understand their inclusion, so you don't have to mention every time Jim Henson played Kermit and so on, but sometimes, it seems counterproductive and counterintuitive, including characters who were only or primarily used for a single series, special, or film, like Blotch or Ghost of Christmas Present. Wouldn't it be more natural to include only major or otherwise notable characters in the main list, and any one-timers or film specific ones in their appropriate film? Especially since in the more recent films, folks like Jerry Nelson have played multiple bit parts, but they're not listed in the current format. Secondly, title organization. Bolding linked titles makes sense, though it's not done in every page, but the order doesn't. Most seem to be there as people thought to add them, with no clear order. Alphabetical, chronological, ascending, descending, it doesn't particularly matter to me, but a system would be nice, especially as with some people, like Kevin Clash or Bill Barretta, their credits list in capacities other than strict puppeteering (coordinator, writer, producing or directing etc.) continue to grow. --Andrew, Aleal 01:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, as you may have guessed, the credit listings just sort of evolved as we created the early pages. We didn't really think about it much at the time; we just sort of slapped the info on the pages and trusted to luck. So yeah, any kind of organization system would be helpful. Right now, there's nothing, so don't worry about stepping on anyone's toes if you want to create a format. -- Danny Toughpigs 02:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I took a first stab at it with Jerry Nelson, keeping Muppet Show and Sesame folks at the top but with the rest in approximate chronological order. Right now, I've only used dates for characters he only played for a time or to give a general time frame (as with the Muppet Meeting Films). I tossed in a couple of audio credits at the end, and even with the Cameos page, I'm thinking an on-camera or other acting list at the end might not hurt. Later on, it might be worthwhile to arrange according to movies, specials, TV shows, guest spots, etc. but right now this is easiest. Also, character ordering. I re-arranged it to be alphabetical, which I think was the original goal, but not sure whether to keep that, since there's a lot of one-shots or minor recurring characters worth adding, but then without a credits billing, ordering would be largely subjective, so I dunno. Also, I'm thinking I might add in movies and series not listed, but with no characters listed unless they were new to the production, like I did with Christmas Carol and Treasure Island. How's that sound? -- Andrew, Aleal 02:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd wondered why you made all those titles bold instead of italics. As Danny said, as the wiki was built, the titles in a list were bolded. But we've been going through performer pages and changing them all to italics. I only recently tried out making them bold and italics, and I think it looks better. -- Scott Scarecroe 17:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Danny really hadn't explained what the current preference was on performer pages, and I couldn't tell what to use, just wanted to be consistent. Well, I only tried it out on Nelson and David Rudman anyway, so easy to fix. Thanks for the headsup. Should dates be included for films or shows? Right now, they're mostly on pages where the info was copied from IMDb. On the one hand, it's not really necessary except when a performer only served a stint on a series or played a character for a certain time, as the dates are all on the linked pages, but it does help with chronology. Thoughts? --Andrew, Aleal 22:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Dates would be nice, but it's more work and just one more thing to keep on top of when the information is only a click away. So I'd lean towards no. -- Scott, Scarecroe 22:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, italics added (and I added links for The Muppet Show and Sesame Street, just so they'd look less out of place). How's it look? I kept both those on top, which I think makes sense with the major long-running performers, but with others, like Karen Prell, who only spent short stints on the series, it might make more sense to put them in chronologically . Thoughts? --Andrew, Aleal 22:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Voice Actors

  • Also, how would/should I even create a subcategory for voice actors? Or should they be called Muppet Performers as well? Wiesnerc 00:42, 13 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • I don't think so. In my opinion, at least, Muppet Performer implies they have puppeteered.--Pantalones 02:05, 14 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • Oh, I was just about to say yes. I figure Lynne Thigpen is a Muppet Performer, and Marilyn Sokol. Yeah, somebody else manipulates the puppet, but Lynne Thigpen plays Luna. Ditto with Marilyn and Ma Otter. -- Toughpigs 02:07, 14 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • Yeah, you're right. I mean, if we wanted to break it down into Muppeteers, it would be different, but I see how they'd fit under Muppet Performers. Carry on.--Pantalones 02:11, 14 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • Is this still open for discussion? I'm seeing names like Tim Curry, Jeffrey Tambor and Jason Alexander listed as Muppet Performers based on their guest spots as minor characters in individual Dinosaus episodes, and it seems wrong to me. Technically, I don't even think of the dinosaurs as Muppets. I'd be up for a new category.. "Creature Shop Voice Actors," or something like that but better. PrawnRR 00:43, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I saw those too, and I'm having the same response. I'd be up for making a different category -- maybe Voice Performers? I dunno. -- Toughpigs 01:22, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • This should be split into three categories: one for those who do puppetry only, one for those who do voice-overs only, and one for those who do both (speaking of which, I consider them TRUE Muppeteers - that's what they should be called).--MuppetVJ 03:54, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • I think that's a good distinction to make, between puppeteers, voice actors and people who do both. I'm glad you're splitting them up; there were too many people in the same category. Personally, I like the term "Muppet Performers" for the people who do both, because that's how they've always been listed in credits. I don't know if "Muppeteers" has ever been in the credits; that's more of an informal name. "Muppet Performers" feels classy and respectful to me. -- Toughpigs 04:13, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • Gotcha. I'm changing the categories, but I don't get why some of the names are still staying on the "Performers" list. Perhaps that's a thing only Wiki can sort out?--MuppetVJ 17:22, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • It seems like sometimes it takes the category listing a little while to figure itself out. I've had that happen with other stuff too. If it's been a while and the names are still showing up on the wrong list, it might help to edit the Category page, make a tiny edit, and save it again. That sometimes helps to shake out the inappropriate links. This is great, by the way. It's gonna be a really nice system, once they're all split out. -- Toughpigs 17:30, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Editing Article Names

  • Gah! I typed Edwards instead of Edmonds and I need to fix it but don't know how. Wiesnerc 02:02, 12 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • Just click on the move link at the top of the page and it will give you the option to rename it. --Scarecroe 01:42, 13 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • Awesome, Scott. Thanks! Done and done. Wiesnerc 01:59, 14 Dec 2005 (UTC)

New articles

  • How would I create new articles for performers like Allan Trautman and David Barclay? -- User:Wiesnerc

  • This is the easiest way to do it:

1. Go to an existing performer page. Go into edit, and copy the text and the category code.

2. Go back to the regular article page. Change the URL in the address bar to the name that you want to create.

For example:



3. Hit return, and the wiki will take you to a new page called "Allan Trautman."

4. Click on edit, paste in the text you copied, and start editing.

And that's it. You can do the same thing to create any new page -- just remember to use _ for spaces, and that capital letters matter. For more information, check out Help:Contents. Toughpigs 11:48, 7 Dec 2005 (UTC)

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