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Sort it out

Right now this category includes any, and all, stage show or walk around characters on the wiki -- we go from The Muppet Show on Tour's [[Rizzo stage-show puppet]] to the Creature Shop's Pushmi-pullyu to Sesame Place's Jackman Wolf walk-around to Emmet Otter's Jane to the promotional Fraggle walk-arounds... Now not too long ago the Stage Shows category was cleaned up and sorted into sub-cats, and I was thinking it might be useful if we break this group into subcategories - Sesame Street, Muppets, Creature Shop, etc.
Between Sesame Street Live and Sesame Place there are enough Sesame walk-arounds to fill out a nice category (without being cluttered by other stage shows). And the Creature Shop has done a bunch of unique stage show work and walk-around creatures (only some of which we've covered on the wiki as of now) that we could fill an interesting category (without those items being lost in a sea of walkaround lists, which are basically a bunch of character variation pages).
I put together a proposed breakdown listed below to see how things would shake out. Thoughts? -- Brad D. (talk) 05:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Another good catch. Looking at the list, I don't think we even need Dinosaurs walk-arounds, since it can all be merged into Dinosaurs Live!. The biggest category would be the Sesame Stage Show characters. Carrot Top isn't a Creature (made by the Muppet Workshop and with a clear Muppet aesthetic), so either something like "Muppet Workshop Stage Show Characters," or really, just "Carnival Characters" (there's three more to add to the group once we get around to it; Carrot Top just had the best individual picture). We've tried to limit "Miscellanous" categories, but right now, Bear, Fraggle, and Muppet Babies pages could all go into a "Miscellaneous Muppet Series Stage Characters." In fact, at this point, I think keeping the umbrella category, but breaking down as "Stage Characters" rather than "Stage Show Characters" (especially since several are actually from parades or park meet and greets and so on, which I guess could count as a kind of stage performance, but not from a specific "show"). -- 06:04, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I think it's a good idea to break out Sesame, Muppets and Puppet Up.
I agree with Andrew that we don't need Dinosaurs walk-arounds, and I'd say the same for Muppet Babies walk-arounds, Fraggle walk-arounds and Bear walk-arounds. Those could all just go on their corresponding show/event pages -- Dinosaurs Live!, Muppet Babies Live, Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade / Muppets, Music & Magic and Playhouse Disney: Live on Stage. They were part of our 2006 "everything gets a page" drive, and we don't really need them.
I think Carrot Top could also just be merged into the Carnival page. I'm not sure why he counts as a Muppet character anyway, or why that page is in Muppet Stage Shows. The Muppet Workshop built the puppets, but it was a work-for-hire gig, not a Henson production. -- Danny@fandom (talk) 06:21, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, the work for hire argument could go for any number of commercial spokescharacters too. I don't see why he's less of a Muppet than Bad Andy or Flat Eric, and we'd agreed in the past that they counted (moreso than Flat Eric, really, since the Carnival crew were completely original designs). And right now, we'd have to really flesh out Carnival to fit Carrot Top in. Why not just leave him out of stage characters, then, and just in Muppets. As for Carnival itself, if you can think of a better way to classify it, feel free, but by default, it was the best fit, and every article about the show, which was a very brief glossy LA thing, mentioned the Muppet element (it was a show with some Muppets in it rather than a show built around Muppets, true, but). Actually, thinking about it again this second, even though they're not *the* Muppets, maybe this would count as a special kind of Live Appearance deal? -- Andrew Leal (talk) 06:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Merging Carrot Top isn't hard at all -- I just did it. :) We can take it out again if you don't like it, but I wanted to show how easy it is. I think that makes the Carnival page better, too, so now we have one good page rather than two half-good ones.
Now that you mention it, I'm not sure why Bad Andy and Flat Eric are Muppets, either. They were also work-for-hire puppets, based on other people's designs. They're not the same as Wilkins and Wontkins, for example, which was Henson's design and puppetry. I'd be happy taking Andy and Eric out of Muppet Characters, and just having them in Commercials Characters.
And I think Carnival works better as a Live Appearance than a Muppet Stage Show. I wish we had a better place for this work-for-hire stuff, but there isn't that much of it, so we don't have another category for it. Coca-Cola Polar Bear is a similar page, that one's in Creatures... -- Danny@fandom (talk) 06:51, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
PS: Just looking at Talk:Flat Eric again, it ended up kind of inconclusive. -- Danny@fandom (talk) 06:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Another PS: Looking at Muppets vs Creatures... Bad Andy, Flat Eric and Carrot Top are all closer to the spirit of our definition of "Henson Company Puppets". Our definition on that page talks about puppets made after 2004, but I think the concept is the same -- puppets made by the Henson Company that aren't for "Muppet" productions. We don't have a "Henson Company Puppets" category, but maybe we should?... -- Danny@fandom (talk) 06:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, we can bring it up again if you like. Kenner Gooney Bird, while performed by Jim Henson, is based on a pre-existing design and character, though naturally the final product is pretty different. I know we decided to go by aesthetics and not who made it, but if everyone involved calls Carrot Top and pals Muppets, I don't see why they're not (of course, we've never made that work for hire distinction on Creatures, since there's so much more of it involved there, and only a handful of full Henson productions). In case it's not also clear, they weren't just "built" but fully designed; in other words, they don't look like any other versions of the characters in other shows in the least, so they're not based on anything but script directions. The articles (posted to Toughpigs way back in the day) note that it wasn't quite a work for hire even, strengthening the live appearance aspect, but Ed Christie hearing that Encore was doing the show and wanting Muppets to be in it, calling up the group, and so "the puppets were the first ones we cast" (it also notes that they rejected Christie's suggestion of working Kermit and Piggy into it, which should go into the article). And Carrot Top tacked on right now looks awkward, but then again, we can always add an attention tag (since it will look fine once the repeated stuff is yanked and details on the other characters added), so I'm fine with merging. The main reason we coined the term "Henson Company Puppets" is, well, because the company last the rights to the word "Muppet." Of course, with Carrot Top merged, it may not matter anyway. Flat Eric is based on someone else's design; from what it looks like anyway, Bad Andy isn't, just like Kenner Gooney Bird, a work for hire. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 07:05, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree with what's being said. Some of these pages (such as the Dinosaurs walk-arounds and their respective show) can be merged to clean things up. With the Creature vs. Muppet debate - it's tougher. After the sale of "The Muppets", Henson merged the Muppet Workshop into the Creature Shop (something already had a lot of overlapping to begin with). So now the creature shop produces everything - the traditional Creatures, the Muppet-like puppets, and everything else. They produce what they now just call "soft puppets", but in the pre-2004 world we (and everyone else) would have called that product a Muppet.
I agree with calling the sub categories mearly "stage characters" rather than "stage show characters" - as many of the Sesame Place walk-around characters in the "Sesame Street Stage Show Characters" aren't from traditional stage shows, and I agree that "Sesame Street Stage Characters" works better. Plus the creature shop category could take in the characters from both theater and live events.
Do we want to start moving these? -- Brad D. (talk) 20:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, the "what is a work for hire puppet" debate with Danny is another issue, really, and can always be brought up again later at the Carnival talk page. Emmett is still being discussed, but I think we can go ahead and start with the Sesame Street stuff, since there aren't any questions or issues with that and they make up the largest group. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:13, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I'll move the Sesame stuff then - it will get a lot clear alot up and by getting that out of here and we can see what's left, where we stand, and what we want to do next. -- Brad D. (talk) 21:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I just moved the Sesame Street stage show characters into their own sub-category. I think if we move the Muppet walk-arounds (from The Muppet Show on Tour & Disney theme parks) next, we'll have less than 10 articles to sort out and/or find homes for the information. -- Brad D. (talk) 22:00, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Nice work, Brad! I've taken out the Sesame characters below, so we can see what's left. I think I'll be able to do the Muppet Stage characters later tonight. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 23:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm doing the Muppet ones... Why are the Sesame characters in "Sesame Street Stage Characters" rather than "Sesame Street Stage Show Characters"? -- Danny@fandom (talk) 00:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The reason for "Stage Characters" rather than "Stage Show Characters" is because (as Andrew said early) a few of the characters (mainly a few of the Sesame Place walk-arounds) are not from any particular show - they appear on the stage of a parade float, or a theme park photo station stage, etc. But they aren't from a stage show. -- Brad D. (talk) 01:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposed category break-down

Delete?

This conversation was moved from Talk:Sam the Eagle walk-around

We don't have a picture for this page or any info beyond the obvious. Maybe someday, we'll find a treasure trove of Muppet Show on Tour pics, but until then, can we delete this page? -- Danny@fandom (talk) 22:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I would support deletion of this. By the way if we have any contributors in Texas, then this might be worth trying to dig into VEE Corporation Archives. Henrik (talk) 17:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
There are quite a few walk-around character pages that don't have images, and should probably be deleted. Among them Herry Monster (though I recently saw a commercial online for Big Bird Goes Hollywood which included a few shots of the Herry Monster walk-around. I can't remember what the site was, but if it's still available stills from that could be taken), Forgetful Jones, Simon Soundman, Gladys the Cow, Fred the Wonder Horse, Two-Headed Monster, Dr. Bunsen Honeydew, J.P. grosse, and others. --Minor muppetz 18:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I'd be happy to delete all of those... We can always create them again when we've got something to say. -- Danny@fandom (talk) 19:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I think we've got enough to keep the Herry page; the video's at RetroJunk.com. -- MuppetDude 19:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Oh, yeah -- that's a great picture! Excellent. Do you have a link to that video? -- Danny@fandom (talk) 19:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Oh, never mind, I found it -- here it is. I'll post this on the Big Bird Goes Hollywood page too... -- Danny@fandom (talk) 19:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm gonna delete the walk-around pages that don't have pictures or useful info. I'm moving this conversation to the category page, so we can remember where it is for future reference. -- Danny@fandom (talk) 23:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Pre-recorded

Is it really neccessary to mention that, in the live stage shows, the characters are performed to pre-recorded vocal tracks by their regular performer? If one really wants to know who performed a certain character, one would just have to look at that characters page on the Wiki (and all of the article pages for the walk-arounds link to pages on the characters they are based on). It is useful to point this out on a page for a character created especially for a live stage show, or to point out this type of information if an alternate performer performed the voice of a character, but I do quesstion every mention of a pre-recorded track by the regular performer. What does everyone else think? --Minor muppetz 03:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. It's repetitive. Feel free to take those out, if you want. -- Danny (talk) 03:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
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