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Unseen and VO Characters

It was getting all windy down there again. Well, seeing Bernie, to say nothing of The Dancing Mountain, has made me all happy again. Yaaaaaay! So how about this. For now, I'll go ahead and delete the off-camera voice bit, but when the time comes to add in, say, Harry from The Wonderful World of T-Shirts sketch or even, say, a page analyzing and contrasting the personalities and failings of all of the strictly VO Jerry Nelson announcers (not counting A. Ligator), I guess we could call it "Voice Characters" or something, even make it a subcat of audio, see also Unseen? I don't know, it seems like we're making it more complicated than it should be. But as long as Bernie and Ned Shimmelfinny can still cavort with dancing mountains, whatever anyone else wants to do is fine with me! --Andrew, Aleal 04:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


Categorical Denials

I nominate Category:Audio Characters and Category:Illustrated Characters for inclusion as sub-categories to this category. Providing links to those categories at the top of this page is helpful, but structurally, it's not the best way for its integration into the wiki. I feel pretty strong about Audio Characters, but I can see it working or not for Illustrated. Audio Characters are never seen and thus, are a sub-category to Unseen. Illustrated only exist in illustrated form, so it's a close enough fit for organizational purposes. -- Scott Scarecroe 23:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, here's my take on it. Audio Characters and Unseen Characters are totally different animals. Unseen Characters is for people like Charlie, Ms. Ardath and Gags Beasley -- where the point of the character is that they're not on screen.
The Audio Characters category is for characters who would appear on screen if the production they were in was televised. If the Roosevelt Franklin album was a TV special, then Baby Ray Franklin would be on screen; ditto for Elmo and the Orchestra and Leonard Birdseed. The only reason they're not "seen" is that the productions are record albums and not TV shows. They're technically "unseen", but they don't fit the spirit of the category.
So there you go; I think the tie should be broken by Andrew, who created the category. -- Danny Toughpigs 00:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree -- which is why we put Leonard Birdseed in Audio Characters and not Unseen Characters. Audio as a sub-cat of Unseen doesn't make it any less its own category.
No pressure on Andrew, everyone should have a say. -- Scarecroe 00:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm under school pressure right now, but prior to a general vote or whatever, I did try to be specific in my definition. Maybe I should have used "Off-Camera" characters. I agree Audio characters are a gray area, but let's take Leonard Birdseed. We never did remove him from Muppet characters, anyway, so that's one problem. But beyond that, he's an audio character because he's in an audio medium and he's heard. But there's that little picture of him, so he's not entirely unseen, even within the context of that album. Similarly, within illustrated books, any character who is seen is, well, not an unseen character even if they're not an actual Muppet puppet, but unseen characters can exist within books. And some can be both Audio and Illustrated Characters, i.e. book and tape sets. I think it's fitting to put such characters, as encountered in both, but it would be confusing to have them as a subcategory. It's sort of like why we decided not to put Fraggle Rock Characters etc. as subcats of Muppet Characters, both to make the list cleaner and because they ain't all Muppets. I created this category as a fun place to stick all those folks who could not conceivably fit into any other category, as they're not Muppets, they're not humans, they're not animated characters, and so on. And even within audio productions, there can be a distinction between "unseen" characters who speak, and those who are more like Charlie et. al, characterized only through others' reactions. If the Count trips over his cat in a record, and scolds Fatatita or however it's spelled, but she isn't heard, then she's an unseen character in every sense of the word. --Andrew, Aleal 05:25, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
We can be as specific as we want with category descriptions. They're for that specific category. It doesn't mean that they apply to any sub- or parent categories. They're their own category as defined by their description. I'm just saying that Audio characters are not seen and therefore belong as sub-category to Unseen Characters. -- Scott Scarecroe 21:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure again. See, Earl E. Bird is a good example. He's an Audio Character because he was introduced in a CD album, but he's also an unseen character, in every sense of the word. Radio historians sometimes use the term "off-mike character" in these instances. But then as mentioned, Leonard Birdseed is heard and is seen on the cover. -- Andrew, Aleal 21:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I see what you're saying, but Leonard Birdseed isn't in the Unseen category. He's in Audio, which is a subdirectory of Unseen. That doesn't mean he necessarily has to meet all the criteria of Unseen, just that his general categorization falls in line under Unseen. -- Scott Scarecroe 21:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Scott, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. What does a subcategory mean to you? To me, if something is a subcategory, then that means that the items in the subcategory are also part of the main category. Like, Muppet Books and Muppet Albums are subcategories of Muppet Merchandise. All of the items in those categories are part of Merchandise. -- Danny Toughpigs 22:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Simply, are Audio Characters seen or unseen? -- Scott Scarecroe 22:25, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Audio Characters are seen, in the sense that they're "on-mike" and present in the narrative. For the purposes of the record album, they're seen. -- Danny Toughpigs 22:45, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm cool with that. In which case, I submit that the phrase "off-screen voices" be removed from the criteria under which a character is eligible for inclusion in the Unseen Characters category. -- Scott Scarecroe 22:59, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, right now, there isn't anything that fits that description anyway, so I'm cool with that. Can we take the time out off? -- Danny Toughpigs 23:01, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. To date, it doesn't actually apply to any of the characters in the category anyway, though I included it if at some point someone were, say, to make a page for Miss Piggy's photographer in Muppet Family Christmas or the trucker voiced by Jerry Nelson in The Great Muppet Caper. And I specified off-screen, as distinct from audio, because there has to be a screen to be off of. But I guess I could live with that, or we can dredge up the issue again when it arises. (I wouldn't stick those under "Audio Characters" even if they are only heard, as it's misleading). I do now wish I had just called this "Off Screen Characters." I thought it would be a fun idea, not cause headaches. --Andrew, Aleal 23:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Off Screen Characters works well if we wanted to go with that.
Incidentally, how do we feel about Earl E. Bird who was neither seen, nor heard? -- Scott Scarecroe 23:11, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Like I said, I'd consider Earl a type of unseen character, the off-mike character (as happened often in radio, most often with grotesques like Two Top Dugan, the guy with two heads, or telephone operators, or characters like Rishigan Fishigan from Sishigan, Michigan, who could never be as funny if they actually said anything). But now I dunno. I'm oddly depressed by all this. --Andrew, Aleal 23:19, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh, sweetie, don't be depressed. Scott is just being a dumbass. Scott, look what you've done! You've made Andrew sad. I vote that we keep the damn category the way it is, and take the Audio subcat out. In fact, I'm gonna go ahead and do that. -- Danny Toughpigs 23:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, don't be glum! We're just rappin', ya dig? -- Scott Scarecroe 00:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
If it helps, I added two more -- Bernie and Marty. -- Danny Toughpigs 01:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Are you all having fun indenting things? ;-) -- user:zanimum
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