Forum:"Muppeteer" Credits

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Our article for What is a Muppet? says: "Sesame Workshop retains the Muppets name in its credits and products for 'Sesame Street', continuing to call its characters 'Jim Henson's Sesame Street Muppets' and the puppeteers 'Muppet Performers' or 'Muppeteers.'" However none of the credits pictured there use the term "Muppeteer." Are there any productions (Sesame or not) where the on-screen credits use the word "Muppeteer" for the performers? - BradFraggle (talk) 19:57, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Scouring around right now. 3, 2, 1 Let's Go is the only thing so far I've found that uses it in the credits. - Shane

(talk) 20:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Might be worth tracking on the Muppeteer page where the term has been used officially... right now we have an internal memo, a third-party book, and a series of international shorts. - BradFraggle (talk) 20:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd also be interested in tracking official uses of "Muppeteer" considering how often it comes up lately how much Jim disliked it and Frank hates it. —Scott

(talk) 11:29, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

The first season of TMS uses the credits 'The Muppet People', 'The Muppet Puppeteers' and 'The Muppet Performers'. 'Muppeteers' is used in TV documentaries and online forums. I've never seen it used in any official books. David French (talk) 07:05, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Here's a caption from the 1979 CTW corporate review. —Scott

(talk) 20:59, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Ryan Dillon's Instagram handle is ryandillonmuppeteer. —Scott

(talk) 16:28, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Joey Mazzarino uses the term at the Nerd HQ panel in 2014 (YouTube) —Scott

(talk) 15:31, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

There's 11 instances in Sesame Street Unpaved, according to Internet Archive's OCR.

In The Wisdom of Big Bird, "Would I be good enough to be a real Muppeteer?" (pg 28), "I would take a pay cut, but at last I would become a Muppeteer." (pg 32) and "Richard Hunt, another Muppeteer, heard my complain and made an insightful suggestion." (pg 95)

In My Life as a Furry Red Monster, "...wondering how much longer my dream job as a Muppeteer-in-training would last." (pg 2) and "But before the writers ever put pen to paper or a Muppeteer gives life to a character..." (pg 178)

In Sesame Street Dad: Evolution of an Actor, a photo caption noting "...muppeteer Camille Kampouris, and me on the set, 1989.", and on the back cover, a review from "Kevin Clash -- Muppeteer."

In Disney News (summer 1991), "Henson's long-time co-worker and fellow Muppeteer Frank Oz took over the directorial duties for the film's post-production." -- Zanimum (talk) 00:25, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Three more:

No Strings Attached: "...operated by legendary Muppeteer Kevin Clash, for close-ups." (Labyrinth chapter, pg 35)

John Tartaglia's memories of Jerry Nelson, on Muppet Mindset, 2012: "We are a lucky few that are able to say that we are Muppeteers." "Those of us who are a part of the younger generation of Muppeteers..." "Of course, I didn’t know who Jerry or any of the Muppeteers were at the time..."

Michael Earl, 2011: "Jerry was my favorite Muppeteer." -- Zanimum (talk) 01:31, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Outstanding! It's probably time to sandbox these. —Scott (talk) 12:04, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

I started Sandbox:"Muppet Performer" vs. "Muppeteer" as a place to (A) track how the puppeteers have been credited over the years (especially useful/interesting to show how the Sesame Street characters and performers credits have evolved) and (B) to track uses of the term of "Muppeteer" in print and other places. We'll see how it evolves/grows, but might end up splitting the "puppeteer credits" part and the "use of the term Muppeteer" lists or integrate info into the What is a Muppet? and/or Muppeteer articles. -- 17:22, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

This is great, thanks for getting it started! I've been so busy, I wasn't sure I'd get to it right away. —Scott

(talk) 17:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)`

"Muppet Performer" vs. "Muppeteer" has grown in the sandbox over the past year. It seeems disproportionate to try to just dump/integrate all of it into the Muppeteer article (which covers a lot more than just the word; it also covers the whole craft and profession of the performers). If this information is to live outside the sandbox, I think the best solution would be to split it in two:

"Muppet Performer Credits" - Basically a gallery and behind the scenes list showing how the performers have been credited. While The Muppets have been fairly consistent with use of "The Muppet Peformers" it's interesting to see how the Sesame credits have evovled and which tertiary productions have used the M-word (Faffner Hall but not Moter Goose Stories, Animal Jam but not Bear, etc).
"Use of the word Muppeteer" - a list tracking when/how the term has been used. Could be a standalone article, could simply be a section in the larger "Muppeteer" article, or could just continue to live in the sandbox for our own curration and curiosity sake.

I think the gallery of credits is pretty solid and better than the spattering of credits we have on What is a Muppet?. Does this information have a life outside the sandbox? -- BradFraggle (talk) 17:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Any thoughts or opinions on spinning the galleries off into a "Muppet performer credits" artcile as a gallery and behind the scenes list that simply focuses on tracking the various ways the performers and puppeteers have been credited on-screen over the years? -- BradFraggle (talk) 18:17, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what it should look like, but I'm interested in continuing to track instances in which "Muppeteer" has been used. Brian Jay Jones insists that Jim was very against the term. I slightly disagree with the degree to which he stresses this on social media, but it's still interesting to track given that there's at least one documented (in Jim Henson: The Biography) instance of Jim being unfavorable to the term. —Scott

(talk) 18:30, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree and I think leaving "Sandbox:"Muppet Performer" vs. "Muppeteer" to continue to track use of (and opposition to) the use of the M-word for the performers is useful (on-screen, in interviews, in print, etc). But the growing galleries of screen credits are a whole different beast and I think they can be spun-off and live happily on their own outside the sandbox as just a way to track the ways the puppeteers have been credited. -- BradFraggle (talk) 18:42, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Since the idea is that this will be ongoing, I think a better home than sandbox or just breaking as it stands would be Category:Projects. We're still working on redefining guidelines for sandboxes, but one of them is that if the idea isn't necessarily for an actual article but a personal interest, it should go in user space. But for something like this, when it's specifically a matter of community research to be used and grown by editors rather than for casual readers, it's a project and becomes a page but with the Muppet Wiki prefix for organization. Casual visitors don't track credits or corporate/in-house terminology. Project pages also allow a certain leeway for "still researching" instances which we strive to avoid in a main space article. (Also, unlike sandboxes which are intended as rough drafts, I think project articles could be linked from or cited on other pages if and when appropriate).

Date tracking, identification and wanted lists, etc. are projects. This fits that. While the designation for Projects comes as an admin change (and so should be discussed first), editors are definitely encouraged to state up front if a page is designed with that goal in mind when starting as a sandbox. This is kind of draft text for those guidelines (which will include time limitations or periodic reviews to avoid the current mess), but that will help for pages of this kind. So a sandbox that's clearly for a project and in a workable state can be relabeled by or before such assessment. -- Andrew

19:16, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Fair point about where/how we house the information. However, regardless of which namespace/category we end up putting this minutiae into (main, project, sandbox, ect), I think the original page has evolved in two different directions and would work better as two separate lists/pages. While somewhat related, tracking the various ways the puppeteers and characters have been credited on-screen and tracking usage of the word "Muppeteer" in-print and interviews are two different projects. -- BradFraggle (talk) 21:08, 8 February 2023 (UTC)