For the new characters from Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock, we won't categorize them as "Muppet Characters," correct? The word "Muppet" is nowhere in the credits, either for the performers or builders. I say this as Brad tried adding them to Muppets voiced by celebrities and while it makes sense for them to be on a page like that, they technically won't be Muppets even though the series originated as an official Muppet thing. - Shane (talk) 19:49, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
- If Back to the Rock isn't a "Muppet TV Show," then it's just a "Henson Company Puppet Show" (like Pajanimals and Happytime Murder)... and if the new characters aren't Muppets (or Creatures) and the puppeteers aren't "Muppet Performers" (or "Creature Shop Performers") then why would we cover them? What is our scope and level of coverage for the new show then? I'm of the mindset (and thought our policies were) that "once a Muppet franchise, always a Muppet franchise" (I mean, we still fully-cover the seasons of Sesame Street where they went by "The Sesame Street Puppet Characters" and didn't use the M-word). -- BradFraggle (talk) 20:49, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think it'd be wrong for us not to cover it in the same detail as the previous show; it's not a totally unique thing like, say, Doozers which features no recognizable new characters (save for a one-shot appearance by the Ditzies). I'm just thinking we shouldn't put any new developments in the Muppet categories. - Shane (talk) 21:32, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think it depends on how we define (and continue to redefine) what a "Muppet" is and isn't. Before it was easy (any puppet franchise made by Jim... well, unless it was more "realistic," then it was a "Creature"). Now we have to ask who owns it? What workshop built it? How it's branded/marketed? What is the aesthetic/vibe? What legacy properties is it based on or tied to? etc. -- BradFraggle (talk) 21:42, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
- Going back a bit, Shane's initial question wasn't that the series shouldn't be categorized as a "Muppet TV Show." It's how to categorize new characters, which I don't think any of us who've chimed in so far actually have seen or know (definitely question marks or "unknown character" shouldn't be added to a character list page anyway). Some may not even be puppets at all (press releases say celebrity voices, but speaking of Ditzies, some could easily be CG or effects or whatever). We've had similar discussions on a smaller scale (as with '80s Robot). It would be good to get a concensus, but right now we don't even have anything to judge by. So personally I'd suggest we all waiting until these characters appear and there's something to go by, and that we discuss *before* creating new solo pages or extensive coverage if they end up being one-shots. Otherwise it's all hypothetical. -- Andrew 22:41, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think we need to define more distinct categories for performers and celeb voices on this. Otherwise, I think Shane's point about excluding Muppet categories is fairly straightforward as far as potential new character pages. Catting them as Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock characters or something should be enough and we don't need to compensate. Plus, Muppet Wiki:Coverage classifies this as an extension of a pre-1990 franchise, so coverage should not be in question. — Jon (talk) 21:37, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- That's partially what we're discussing. Wembley and the others were made as Muppet characters, but are no longer considered Muppet characters since the Disney sale. As mentioned above, the word "Muppet" is nowhere in the credits for either the performers or workshop team. - Shane (talk) 17:06, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- I always though "once a Muppet, always a Muppet" and the pre-Disney sale franchises were grandfathered in regardless of current ownership or use of the M-word per our coverage policies. Seems weird to say Boober Fraggle isn't a Muppet. Season 22 of Sesame Street didn't use the word "Muppet" (calling them "The Sesame Street Puppet Characters" and the performers "Puppeteers") but we don't treat the characters or performers from that season differently because they didn't use the word Muppet in the credits. -- BradFraggle (talk) 17:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- I see that point. Wembley or Mokey are technically still Muppets by our standards. But I'm not sure that still qualifies Jordan or Donna as Muppet Performers. But now that the show is out and we know what all the new characters are, I'm good with keeping them just in Fraggle-based categories, not Muppet ones. - Shane (talk) 20:26, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- This is a toughie. Without a doubt — despite legalities and what corporations use for terms — Fraggles are Muppets. It says so right in the original show's title card, "Jim Henson's Muppets." Gobo Fraggle is a Muppet character, so by the grandfathered-in rule we've laid out in our coverage pages, I would say that the Muppet Character designation also applies to new Fraggle characters.
- As for performers... oof, I don't know. That's the tougher one. Is Donna Kimball a Muppet Performer? She performs a character who is a Muppet. So... maybe? I'd say we hear out a few more reasonable perspectives from regular editors and circle back to it. Maybe, as suggested earlier, think about taking a consensus. —Scott (talk) 23:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- Shane made some good points on the legality side of things. Unlike Pajanimals and other similar shows, the reboot continues based on what was originally established in the '80s series. So to me, they still count as Muppets, and the performers would be Muppet performers. They've pretty much inherited that moniker. I also recall that Rollie Krewson refers to the characters as Muppets in her interview for the DVDs, if that's any consideration. -- Tony (talk) 15:31, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
This is getting confused. We definitely don't need to start talking about creating a new category just to include the dedicated show's characters' category (way back in early days, we tried to organize all cats and subcats that way). Editors have already been citing this discussion in edit summaries as if it's a decided issue, so to try to get back to the two main points.
- 1. Do performers on Back to the Rock belong in Muppet Performers, or should a new Back to the Rock Performers category (or all purpose Fraggle Rock Performers but that seems a bit much to me)? The drift seems to be towards Muppet performers but it's been mixed in with comments that seem to be more about whether the existing characters were/are Muppets (Tony cited the Muppet term being used by Rollie Krewson about the original series). Still, it feels like maybe four to two if I'm interpreting comments correctly (I've been on the fence myself). So probably most are in favor of Muppet Performers as category regardless. I *guess* that would mean counting celebrity voices in Muppet Voice Actors as a category; as far as earlier concerns about lists, we've included Creatures there before with suitable subsections, but I'm definitely less sold there myself. It's complicated because the closest to this scenario we've had before was The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance and even there, with mostly existing categories involved and not a lot of changes, the main page still has an incomplete and jumbled cast and characters list and several significant characters lack pages.
- 2. Do the new characters count as Muppet Characters in addition to Back to the Rock characters? As noted, changing ownership doesn't affect existing characters at all even if it's a new puppet. New ones, I'm also kind of iffy, but I also think it makes more sense if treated as a one-time decision as fits the franchise and not trying to bring in arguments about any other current or past Jim Henson Company projects with unrelated characters.
It might be time to take actual votes on each of these (we've done elaborate voting in the past on major wiki issues, but for here when and if we're ready for that, I think we could just start a new heading and let people vote under each). Otherwise, recent replies were getting random and theoretical again. -- Andrew 23:25, 25 January 2022 (UTC)