Forum:Character galleries

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Structured works in progress: Bill Barretta characters Camille Bonora characters Fran Brill characters Julianne Buescher characters Stephanie D'Abruzzo characters Alice Dinnean characters Louise Gold characters Brian Henson characters Jim Henson characters Richard Hunt characters Michael Elizabeth Huston characters Noel MacNeal characters Joey Mazzarino characters Brian Muehl characters Kathryn Mullen characters Jerry Nelson characters Frank Oz characters Karen Prell characters Caroll Spinney characters

Sandboxed works in progress: Sandbox:Eric Jacobson characters Sandbox:Steve Whitmire characters Sandbox:Carmen Osbahr characters

Potential future subjects: Pam Arciero Tyler Bunch Leslie Carrara-Rudolph Kevin Clash Dave Goelz Jerry Juhl Peter Linz John Lovelady Jim Martin Eren Ozker Martin P. Robinson David Rudman Matt Vogel

A couple years ago, we started Caroll Spinney characters, and I've been so happy about how it turned out that I keep finding myself wondering why we don't do it for other performers.

When you look at the "character credits" section of pretty much any performer, it kind of looks like a mess. They're structured like bulleted lists, but the longer lists end up looking very cramped, sometimes with lots of parenthetical to add necessary notes. Plus, they're just links to characters, so you have to click each one to see who it is, and then click back to the link.

The gallery style we honed for Spinney is several magnitudes better. I already started Fran Brill characters to see what another performer might look like. The headings are different from Spinney's, and I think that's okay; we can structure these in the way that best works for that individual. This is obviously a medium-to-big sized project, so I figured I'd get a conversation going before we plowed full speed into these. —Scott (talk) 18:41, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Initial thoughts, I like the general idea. I am a little concerned about it turning into users just pasting "No image" for entries from the credit lists, especially as we've found more info for non-speaking and crowd bits. Right now, Brill looks pretty close to a decent model (not sure how to handle stuff like "pigeons" in The Producers where there's a team of puppeteers, nobody speaks, nothing can be pinpointed, but since she so rarely did Creature Shop projects, I think it's more useful on her page than it would be for, say, Mak Wilson or somebody).

A frequent credit on albums and in season bios for Fran Brill was "various little girls." These mostly coalesced into Prairie Dawn (or occasionally Betty Lou) but that's the kind of thing where at most, one collective entry or just a written note would handle it best (since for Spinney, part of the purpose was tracking down non Big Bird/Oscar roles which were fewer, so even unnamed roles were included, but with Brill, Jerry Nelson, Jim Henson, etc., that can easily become overkill).

One thing this might help with though is pinning down when puppeteers have been stuck in the category "Animated Voice Actors" with no specifics. We know Fran Brill has done her share in Sesame inserts, but apart from a couple "singing over something" instances, we haven't tracked most of it, at least not in an easily searchable form. So that might be more useful than when it comes to "unnamed one line Anything Muppet woman #37" or whatever.

More on this when I have time (if!) Generally, I support it (especially the visual effect), just thinking of how to define the scope, since we know from wiki history this kind of thing can easily get out of hand (it happens often with just the pattern pages as is). And of course, the old sourcing rules apply (if you have to say "I think it was Fran Brill who sneezed for this character," either bring it up in a discussion for consensus or leave it alone; crowd vocals are often hard to pick out and again, as with every extra or random AM, not that helpful). Overall, I think it's a good idea as a supplement, if not a replacement, for credit lists and more useful for casual users. -- Andrew 19:02, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I have similar concerns. I think so long as we keep an eye on things, we can hold these pages to the same standard we do any other page on the wiki. —Scott (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I've also been kind of mixed on those character credits, particularly when we note characters so minor, they don't have a page; for example, on the Jim Henson page, we have "apple from Bilingual Fruit Song" or "One Banana singer." Stuff like that really clutters up those lists. I had thought about generalizing it to "various Anything Muppets in ____," but creating a Jim Henson characters page at some point would be a unique way to present each role. At the same time, we could also simplify the performer credits to main roles. — Jon (talk) 19:11, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed! A gallery allows us to showcase characters we don't need pages for. —Scott (talk) 19:15, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, some users have been so thrilled by identifications from sources that they add to those lists without often being clear. At the least, if we do feel the need to track all of those on the performer page (rather than a character gallery), at this point, the old "characters in alphabetical order" approach (which has often gone by the wayside or been inconsistent anyway) doesn't work too well anymore. I'm thinking two bullets for series work, one "Main/major recurring" (or similar wording) and "Minor/one-shot" or whatever (obviously some POV and who someone thinks is major, but it's pretty clear Farley would come sooner in any list of Jerry Nelson credits than Felix the Grouch or Fico and likewise on Muppet Show roles (originally, a lot of listings for movies and specials, carried over from the long offline Punchandjewelry.com Muppet Character lists, omitted major recurring Muppets, just new characters, but that's also shifted, and those are easier to cleanup). -- Andrew 19:27, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

As for the gallery idea, the fact that Spinney is a solid (if helped by limited roles overall compared to the others) model is a great start, and I think with Brill (or at most another sandbox, maybe for Jim Henson as that could definitely get complicated), we can figure it out without need for too many boxes of sand, but more talking and tweaking definitely. I don't think a gallery would help a ton either with "unidintified fish in singing chorus" stuff (that's now being listed on song pages anyway) where often someone else dubbed the vocals anyway ("On My Pond" is an example, where document sources identified characters who have no names or lines beyond maybe chorus, if they weren't dubbed; all non-fish/Kermit roles are silent). That's the kind of thing I think is most helpful on a song/sketch page, *maybe* on a performer's page (at this point I feel like all vague background chorus stuff, unless there's clear solos and maybe even then, is the same as a silent extra for our purposes) but not so much in a gallery. But would help clarify "apple in bilingual song" stuff (where it is featured speaking/singing at least, so that's a bit over fish).

ETA: I don't know why it didn't occur to me sooner. With stuff from scripts, behind the scenes clips, or other documentation, we've been able to identify who filled in for non-speaking uses of main characters, or right handed or did Kermit's legs. But we don't note it on the performer pages (just the relevant sketch or song) unless it was a consistent pairing. So silent/chorus Muppets partly or wholly dubbed by vocalists stuff seems to fall pretty much into the same camp, for either puppeteer pages or a gallery (probable exceptions if the group is notable in itself, i.e. has a page, or there's distinct solos where you could even screengrab the puppeteer's specific contribution, like Zizzy Zoomers or The Frazzletones where they all get solo moments). That feels like a useful limit for puppeteer or performer role gallery pages, at least to start with (thanks to the additions on the performer pages, take a certain amount of double checking now to weed out some of the "just a silent background puppet" moments from characters who spoke or had on-screen names, but very doable). Thoughts? -- Andrew 19:27, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I think that's reasonable for a silent background character situation. Maybe we go back to just a bulleted list for those on the bottom or something. —Scott (talk) 19:40, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I moved the "All Dressed Up" to the Voices Only section (renamed from Audio). It's still a Fran Brill character, we can just put it in a different spot.

Also, what should we do about the filmography on her article? We don't need to track characters in two places, so I'm thinking we remove all the character names but keep the projects with a note at top to see "Fran Brill characters" for all the characters she's played. I think we could probably do this for any performer we make a gallery for. —Scott (talk) 12:21, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I think it might be a good idea as long as we monitor it well enough. Would we put some kind of limit on what performers we'd do this for? - Shane (talk) 21:47, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

That's a good question. No disrespect to someone like, I dunno, Bruce Edward Hall, but I don't think he needs a character gallery page. Maybe we set a rule somewhere around a dozen or so characters before they warrant their own character gallery. Close to the guidelines we use for cameo pages with the numbers boosted a little.

Also, I'm wondering if it would be in our best interests to go through these one or two at a time so as not to get overwhelmed and stretch ourselves thin. I'm thinking if we start focusing on Jerry Nelson before we're done with Richard Hunt, the end result might suffer. Not that any wiki page is ever an end result, we can always update, but these things tend to get put on the back burner and forgotten when we move on to other things. So maybe we just keep an open dialogue here about what we're working on now and what to tackle next. —Scott (talk) 21:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I like this too. I've often been frustrated that a performer's main characters are buried among his one-shot characters. (I think we should add Big Bird and Oscar to the top of Spinney's gallery page.) --GrantHarding (talk) 14:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

So, my thought on existing filmographies is to leave the lists, but remove instances where characters exceed a few. So, on the Fran Brill example, we'd list Sesame Street: Prairie Dawn, Zoe, and others.... That way we're still listing the credits on the performer pages, but we're also not duplicating the character lists. Does that work? —Scott (talk) 00:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm rather mixed on just two names and "others" for regular characters. Maybe six major characters tops? In Fran's case, Roxie Marie and Little Bird are really the only other significant characters and both minor in comparison, but I'm thinking more that when we get to Jim Henson, Frank Oz, etc. it will look a bit weird (would Henson just get "Kermit, Rowlf, and others" on The Muppet Show, or Waldorf for number two?) and those who don't click to the gallery will be wondering. Some of that can be fixable through adjusting the main text (it's odd to have a picture of Brill performing Little Bird and no mention beyond that caption), but some people will go straight to the credits. Since the longest miscellany list on Fran Brill's page (Sex and Violence) ends at six, that (maybe four if that seems too long?) feels like a reasonable cut-off to me (if there's only two significant regular/recurring characters and the rest utility or one-shots, the "and others" approach makes more sense anyway). -- Andrew 02:43, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

That's a good point about Henson and Oz, etc. I guess I was thinking that most major characters would be in the body of the article, but you're right, some folks just scroll down to the filmography. —Scott (talk) 10:58, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Voice ID: Fran Brill

Can anyone confirm if this is Fran Brill? It's the Fairy Napmother from Episode 4078. I'm not the best at IDing female voices and I'm particularly bad with some of the other women credited that season. —Scott (talk) 12:53, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm positive that's Fran. There's early hints of Mrs. Crustworthy in there. -- Tony (talk) 13:40, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Great, thanks! I just started Fairy Napmother. —Scott (talk) 14:33, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

We know Fran Brill started out on The Great Santa Claus Switch. I skimmed through and found some candidates for who she might be playing:

• https://youtu.be/yhUqto784sI?t=2228 36:38
• https://youtu.be/yhUqto784sI?t=2327 38:47
• https://youtu.be/yhUqto784sI?t=2701 45:01

I'm pretty sure about that third one; the Droop-like character. But I'm less sure about the first two (same character, different time codes). Any thoughts from the voice-chasing experts? —Scott (talk) 16:35, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm actually not too sure the third one is Brill; it sounds a little like Sokol to me. But the other two (the Snerf who says "I didn't say anything." and the green Scoff-like "YA DROPPED HIM!" one) are definitely Brill. -- Tony (talk) 17:10, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Third one sounds a little too soft to be Fran, but those first two clips I'd say are her. - Shane (talk) 20:52, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

The "Green Bird Frackle" (or Scoff-like one) is assigned to Fran Brill (or just Fran, actually) per this sketch. This RedBook entry had a gallery of sketches with puppeteer assignments. Useful, but some show more than one name, folks like Sokol don't come up at all, and in the final special, it's evident that several characters swap, usually between say Jim Henson or Frank Oz for singing/closeups and someone else for crowd and one-line bits. But for this particular one, it adds official confirmation (in general, notes and assignments suggest a lot of the newly hired folks did Frackles but also just basically filled in as utility, so the puppeteer/character pairing wasn't as firm as in other instances). -- Andrew 00:05, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Is there a time signature for Fran as the Green Bird Frackle? I skimmed a couple times and couldn't find it. —Scott (talk) 02:34, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

At 37:32 and through around 38:00. -- Tony (talk) 03:45, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Got it! —Scott (talk) 10:18, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Our page for Oscar's Grouchy Day claims that Fran Brill voices the Countess and Camille Bonora is the narrator:

• Narrator audio sample
• Countess audio sample

Neither of them really sound like Brill or Bonora to me. The narrator sounds like it was probably someone who'd done other Golden Press recordings. Given that the other characters are the main performers, I would expect Countess to also be a Muppet performer, but it doesn't sound like Brill to me. I'm less sure of the latter than I am of the former, but I wanted to put this out there to check with y'all who are better at voice chasing than I am. —Scott (talk) 14:24, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The narrator sounds familiar, but it's not Fran or Camille; the Countess, though, is definitely Fran. She sounds a bit like her Sow #1 character. ("Brilliant, Dr. Nauga!") -- Tony (talk) 14:37, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

EDITED TO ADD: After listening to it some more, I'm positive it's Brill as the Countess, but I'm not certain it's Bonora as narrator. I guess I haven't heard enough of her regular speaking voice to confirm yet; there don't seem to be many interviews with her (are there any?). But the Brill credit is correct. -- Tony (talk) 14:46, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

EDITED TO ADD: (Note to self: listen to the whole thing before you post.) (Eych.) After listening to the rest of it, I picked up on Camille's cadences as she would perform her characters that matched with the narrator's. I now believe that it is Bonora as the narrator. (Where are credits when you need them?!) -- Tony (talk) 14:53, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

We're sure the bird silhouette at 2:49 is Fran Brill? —Scott (talk) 00:48, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

It sounds like her to me. -- Tony (talk) 00:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Adding more character galleries

Fran Brill characters is looking awesome, so I moved it out of the sandbox. I quickly started Louise Gold characters and that's starting to shape up nice, too. Last night, Michael started three more: Sandbox:Kathryn Mullen characters, Sandbox:Camille Bonora characters, and Sandbox:Brian Muehl characters. They're all a very basic start, but I think we should hold off on starting any more for now. With big projects like these, we tend to split our attention and these things get forgotten. It's best to focus on what we've got now and get them into good shape before moving on to even more.

One note on those that we currently have sandboxed: Special:WhatLinksHere is a powerful tool for determining where else on the wiki someone or something is referenced and probably has a lot more information than is currently in either of those performers' filmographies. —Scott (talk) 13:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Good idea on holding off on new pages; they could also result in many edit conflicts. They've been surprisingly fun to fill out, and really show off the versatility of the performers. Excellent work, everybody! -- Tony (talk) 13:28, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I think beyond the little tidbits under the Sesame "unnamed" section, I think the Brian Muehl one is ready to go. - Shane (talk) 22:48, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Nice! I stayed away from that one; I have no idea what Muehl's characters sound like. I went ahead and moved it out of the sandbox. —Scott (talk) 10:47, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

It's starting to get cluttered as predicted. There's six pages in sandbox right now (a couple closer to completion than others, but). I'd like to suggest that (at least until there are no more than three open Sandboxes simultaneously, and even that feels a little much) everyone propose a new performer's character gallery sandbox here first, and then wait to start until there's an okay. As Scott said, it's the best way to ensure they're properly finished, bugs worked out, and none just end up sitting here and overlooked. Plus as also mentioned, there's attendant tweaks to the filmography pages of each performer, so having fewer active instances at a time ensures those are handled properly too. For example, there's a few errors, assumptions, or just "where the heck did this come from?" in main article filmographies that the transplanting of the longer lists to galleries has brought to light, and it's easier to clean those up when there's not a half a dozen or more pages active. Also easier to try to make formatting/divisions relatively consistent (to distinguish main/recurring from one-shot characters, even if the performer only had one ow two of the former). -- Andrew 22:37, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, my bad. I thought I could justify Stephanie's by having enough ducks in a row to start with (and once I get more of the Seuss stuff in, it'll basically be ready to go live). I'm fine with a method of pitching who should get one next. - Shane (talk) 23:51, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

If we're pitching who gets a gallery next, may I suggest Steve Whitmire or Kevin Clash? Or, if it's better to be someone who seems to have a lot fewer characters, how about Peter Linz? --Minor muppetz (talk) 02:01, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd say hold off on pitching until we can clear all the names from the sandbox. - Shane (talk) 03:03, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Exactly my point. Also, "pitching" means a page you're willing to start, not just suggestions for others to do. As I said above, I think three active sandboxes or less should be the limit in future. -- Andrew 03:40, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess this might have been meant more for other editors wanting to create pages, but I am willing to start the pages (but, when it's decided to start those pages, I would not be opposed to anybody beating me to starting a page). --Minor muppetz (talk) 22:43, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed on holding off until current sandboxes are in "article" shape. Note that this doesn't mean an article is "done". A wiki article almost never is. We've added quite a bit to Fran Brill characters since moving it out of the sandbox.

Also worth considering that it might be worth our while to only have one of these in the sandbox at a time when we're talking about someone with an overwhelming filmography. After how mow work we put into Louise Gold and Fran Brill, I'm reeling at how tough some of the Big Guys are gonna be.

These are supposed to be fun, not stressful. So, let's take them a bit at a time. —Scott (talk) 10:45, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed on all points, and by "properly finished," yeah I was thinking in our wiki sense of "going live" (out of sandbox), not "never ever be anything to add." Ready for public viewing. (I get used to certain phrasing, but as we're pointing newer or less frequent editors to this page to explain how all this works, it needed clarifying). -- Andrew 20:18, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

K, I'm not up on scrubbing through more Wubbulous World episodes, but other than a few missing pics for those, I'd say Stephanie D'Abruzzo characters is pretty good to go. - Shane (talk) 22:19, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

There's only two more left in the sandbox now. Is it too early to pitch the next gallery or two? -- Tony (talk) 03:44, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

D'oh! I forgot about this process here. I just started Sandbox: Joey Mazzarino characters - I figured there might be eyes on such a thing since he was just on Matt Vogel's podcast, and he has a finite amount of characters we've pretty much ID'd through all the guides, so all we really need to do is follow what links to him. - Shane (talk) 04:00, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

With only the Bill Barretta page left in the sandbox, I thought I'd propose a couple of standouts from both Sesame and Henson for the next pages: Julianne Buescher and Alice Dinnean. I was really impressed with how often they kept popping up while I was adding performer information for the SS episode guides. What does everyone else think? -- Tony (talk) 03:44, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, to more female puppeteers. Julianne edits her own page here from time to time, so she might be able to give some guidance on a page for her should she happen by one day. - Shane (talk) 03:56, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm all for more female puppeteer representation, and given Julianne's prominence in recent years, as well as Alice's recent "Below the Frame" appearance, I figure these two deserve more attention. (I'm wondering, though, if there's enough characters to justify a Carmen Osbahr page in the future.) -- Tony (talk) 04:00, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, I think we're ready to start in on Buescher and Dinnean. —Scott (talk) 11:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Carmen's probably as much as Caroll has, so a page for her doesn't seem impossible too. But also, these are all starting in the sandbox stage, so we'll be able to tell early on if it's going to work or not. - Shane (talk) 00:11, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Sandbox:Bill Barretta characters was started almost six months ago, and it was last edited nearly a month ago. It looks pretty good to me, so is there anything holding it back, or do we feel its ready to move out of Sandbox so we can make way! make way! for more potential pages? — Jon (talk) 22:18, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I gave it a looksie and I'd agree it's ready. -- Andrew 23:00, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree. - Shane (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Order?

These are looking really good! I know we're holding off before we create pages for everybody, but something occurred to me about the order of characters. Right now, everything is broken down by production, and then major/minor characters within that production. But (and I'm just thinking out loud here), I wonder if it might be better to have the major characters from every production at the top.

Suppose the page we ultimately create for Jim Henson has The Muppet Show at the top. Kermit, Rowlf, and Dr. Teeth would be right at the top, as they should be. But then you'd have to scroll all the way past Silver Beak and Wally Whoopie before you ever saw Ernie. That doesn't seem right to me.

Feel free to tear this idea apart! --GrantHarding (talk) 21:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Personally, I'm not sure. I think it would break my OCD, lol. It's probably fine if people see a header labelled The Muppet Show and know not to find Ernie in that section. They can always skip down to the Sesame section linked in the table of contents. —Scott (talk) 21:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Could put some lead text (I know, not as catchy as pictures) that highlights the half-dozen tip-top-tier major characters of the performers.

Something like "Jim Henson is best known as the performer of Kermit the Frog, he also performed Rowlf the Dog, Dr. Teeth, Waldorf and the Swedish Chef for the Muppets along with Ernie on Sesame Street and Cantus on Fraggle Rock" or "Frank Oz has performed many characters, including Miss Piggy, Fozzie Bear and Animal for the Muppets; and Bert, Grover and Cookie Monster on Sesame Street." -

The Carol Spinney page has a bit of lead text and could work as a compromise to highlight the big dogs -- so readers can get that Jerry Nelson did Floyd (Muppets), the Count (Sesame), Gobo (Fraggle), and Emmet (Otter) without having to scroll through a sea of Whatnots and Anythings. BradFraggle (talk) 15:25, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Voice ID: Louise Gold

rat tourist

Regarding [1], how is it known that Louise Gold puppeteers a tourist rat in MTI if what we hear is Steve Whimire's voice? Aren't there a whole bunch of tourist rats? Originally added here [2] —Scott (talk) 12:08, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I thought I read it from a Muppet Central interview, but it doesn't show up there. The only "evidence" is from a Muppet Central quiz. Emma Shane would know. -- Tony (talk) 12:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I marked it with a CITE tag for now until we can figure it out. —Scott (talk) 13:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

For the record, I think the credit was meant for the tourist guide, but Whitmire performed another rat throughout the film. ("And margaritas at the midnight buffet!" "And the food is to die for!") The lyric book from the MTI soundtrack calls her "Donna Plagueman." -- Tony (talk) 14:20, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, her name is Donna?! We have a page for Mr. Plagueman but not his wife. BradFraggle (talk) 15:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Not really readable, but gives a good idea of the version I have.

My fold-out lyric sheet for the MTI soundtrack CD doesn't have any character names. Did I overlook it, or is there another version? —Scott (talk) 20:31, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

You are overlooking them; they're in the lyrics, attributing the lines to whoever is singing them. - Shane (talk) 20:53, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, dammit, you're right. I was so focused on the credits that I overlooked the song contents. Thanks!

On a related note, here's a good shot of Donna Plagueman if anyone wants to start that article. —Scott (talk) 22:09, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I just skimmed through MTI and found rat tourists at the following time codes:

• 29:22 — silent: Mr. and Donna Plagueman.
• 30:09 — "We'll send postcards!"
• 31:50 — Donna Plagueman: "And margaritas at the midnight buffet!"
• 36:11 — "Yeah!"
• 36:59 — various rats
• 56:03 — "He said go faster!"
• 1:07:00 — cheers
• 1:12:32 — Rat Tour Guide: "Here's a photo opportunity you will not want to miss: the actual jungle location of Muppet Treasure Island."
• 1:26:50 — rat cheerleaders
• 1:31:55 — silent: rat scuba divers

I can't be sure that's every appearance they make, but I couldn't hear Louise anywhere. I don't really hear Steve either; it sounds like someone else trying to do a feminine Rizzo. Anyway, I originally added a cite tag to the claim, but I can't find any evidence anywhere that Louise either puppeteered or voiced a specific rat in the film. I was going to add a line about how's she's at least credited with no identified characters, but Shane added that she was the "hot potato" seller, so I think we have the MTI credit covered. —Scott (talk) 12:17, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I didn't hear Gold's voice either in any of them. Going through several of these on YouTube, it looks like there are multiple rats as Donna; the one with the solo line in "Sailing for Adventure" is different (but similar) to the one at the pagan altar scene. The voice is consistent, though, so it may be a situation where they forgot which one is Ms. Plagueman. The fact that she has several lines, a consistent voice (Whitmire - literally a female Rizzo!) and even a credited name should constitute that she had a minor role nonetheless in the film as much as Mr. Plagueman. -- Tony (talk) 12:48, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Take a Little One Step

Are we assuming Louise, Jim, and Dave played Sweetums, Thog, and Timmy (respectively) in "Take a Little One Step" because of the way they're arranged in this rehearsal photo or do we have another source? —Scott (talk) 11:26, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Louise Gold "others"

Louise Gold characters is mostly structured now, but the "Unconfirmed" section could use some help. Those are all the ones that I couldn't find as listed in our episode guides. My question about Sweetums is directly above, I think the baby in 503 is Kathy Mullen, and I couldn't hear anything from Rover Joe in 523. The other 10 I couldn't find, possibly just due to tied eyes and ears from going through all this stuff. Also could just have been editor guesswork over the years or I just missed it. —Scott (talk) 18:23, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Alright, here's what I can muster from the group:

• 210: can be heard during "Cuanto Le Gusta"; by process of elimination with BTS photo and Dave Goelz's story on his horn-playing pig, Gold is most likely performing the (right-handed) guitar player; also heard in "It All Depends on You", as Miss Mousey (the only other female in the group besides Piggy)
• 217: voices Annie Sue and her mom in "Lonely Goatherd"; the same puppet appears in 220 played by Gold
• 308: plays female baby in "One's On the Way" and Whatnot lady (and child?) in "All Alone"
• 403: singer in "Take a Chance on Me"
• 407: no solo lines
• 411: voice is heard for "He's the Greatest Dancer" and UK Spot
• 503: baby with Ghandi book
• 523: confirmed in Of Muppets and Men book, for "The Cat Came Back"

-- Tony (talk) 18:54, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the run-down. I moved most of these to "ensemble" because it's not always clear which character she's doing to get a proper screenshot. As for the baby with the Ghandi book, listen to the wind-down of her crying; it sounds like Kathy Mullen. I'm gonna get some proper scans from OMAM for "Take a Little One Step" and "The Cat Came Back" before I move them to the gallery. —Scott (talk) 12:44, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Filmographies or just characters?

So to be clear, are these galleries just for specific characters, or are they filmographies, in the sense of listing everything the performer was part of? I know the Brian Muehl page mentions a few segments he was in without noting who he was (and those were non-vocal roles), previously under his few Muppets characters one of the entries was "construction worker in episode 516 and assorted characters" (which has been changed since). It would be cool to list all episodes of The Muppet Show that Muehl performed in (I should check his article and see if that already does the job), but we probably don't need to note productions or segments we know he was in without knowing what he did (especially if he was just lending a hand). With those Sesame Street examples, we pretty much know who he did (most likely one of the back-up frogs in "Disco Frog", one of the Honkers in "The Honker-Duckie-Dinger Jamboree") but don't know if we really need to get into that minutia. --Minor muppetz (talk) 21:19, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I would think a line should be drawn somewhere. Back-Up Frog in "Disco Frog" isn't really a character. Nor would we bother listing times where he was a right hand or such. I think any speaking/singing/animal noise part or something of prominence (like, say, Tim Gosley as the Honker in FTB) is worth it. Anything else probably shouldn't be. - Shane (talk) 21:31, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Recurring characters

How do we define recurring characters? For example, Brian Muehl is credited for both Gilbert and one of the Tarnish Brothers. Both have appeared several times over the years, but Brian only performed as each of them once. -- Tony (talk) 22:19, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

That's pretty simple. A recurring character *for the performer*. If they just filled in or the character seldom or never had a consistent performer, it's not one of the puppeteer's recurring characters. -- Andrew 23:07, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying! -- Tony (talk) 23:13, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I was wondering that as well. There are some characters who never really had a consistent performer, but in some cases the same performer did the character multiple times (Jerry Nelson did Baskerville the Hound in most of his speaking appearances on The Muppet Show, and in fact also did AM Elmo in all his speaking appearances, but they don't seem to have been his characters, and while Betty Lou was performed by whoever was available before Lisa Buckley got the role, Frank Oz and Fran Brill had multiple turns as her). I do question including Mildred among Louise Gold's "recurring" characters when she only did the role twice, in different seasons (and I am on the fence about listing Zelda Rose among her recurring characters). --Minor muppetz (talk) 15:33, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Others

Some of these have an "others" heading in terms of other productions. I saw it on the Fran Brill and Louise Gold pages before I started some. But I wonder if that heading is necessary. Seems like it's a case where the characters don't have many characters in a single production, but does represent some productions where the performers had multiple roles. Should it matter how many characters the performer had in a single production, or should we just give each production a gallery header, even if they only had one role to note? --Minor muppetz (talk) 15:36, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Jerry Nelson

I think, to save everyone headaches, Jerry's page should be a gallery of his main characters and secondary characters, like Floyd, Gobo, Count as mains, and secondarys being Strangepork, Farley, and others. If we made a gallery for his characters, it'd be HUGE. Maybe add a written section about who he shared performances with (Statler, Baskerville, ect)? Or make the gallery pictures a bit smaller for puppeteers who had literal hundreds of characters? I dunno, just spit balling ideas. Lamango (talk) 20:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

It'll be very long, yes. But it's also a finite list, unlike that "Sesame Street goofs" page we were using which could have thousands of examples. Jerry will have a lot, but I think it'll be manageable. - Shane (talk) 21:17, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

It'd take decades. I started a bare bones page for him, with just four characters, cause I accidentally saved a few as PNGs. If there's anything I can do to help out I'd be happy to. Lamango (talk) 21:23, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I think we're going to work our way up to the biggies so we can better focus our attention on them one at a time, rather than have a dozen we have to pay attention to (per the discussions above). - Shane (talk) 21:29, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

True; the big five alone (Jim, Frank, Dave, Jerry, and Richard) have so many that it might be best to do those one at a time in the future. I have a couple of suggestions for the next (shorter) performer pages, whenever that time comes along. -- Tony (talk) 21:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, for Frank, his major character's are obviously Rowlf's right and and the Swedish Chef's hands. ;) Richard, Dave and Frank actually have less 'named' characters then Jerry. Jim is the only one to rival Jerry in this department due to him starting in 1955. Lol. But again, I'd be happy to jump in if you guys need someone to try and take screen shots of the characters being performed by a certain person. Lamango (talk) 23:06, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Muppeteers and their characters page

Jon reminded me that [[Muppeteers and their characters|this page]] has been outdated for years, and it's basically what this project is doing on a larger, better organized scale. I'd go ahead and just redirect, but there's no place to really do so (is it worth creating a subcat for these, and what would we call it? Category:Performer Character Galleries? Character Galleries alone is too vague and would encourage random image farming). The only article linking to it is Muppeteer; other links are just talk threads. So the basic question is, just go ahead and delete and unlink, or try redirecting somewhere that would lead to these galleries? -- Andrew 05:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree that page has become redundant. I think we can just delete it. I was also thinking these will need their own category at some point. - Shane (talk) 05:34, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Agreed on both counts. —Scott (talk) 11:03, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Alice Dinnean

After gathering the last few images needed to get the bullet points into a gallery, I moved Alice Dinnean characters out of the sandbox. I'm not familiar with her voice at all though, so anything I added was strictly based on what the rest of the community has put together. A lot of her characters are super minor which makes voice ID even tougher. If there were a voice reel to go by, that might be helpful, but some of these might need to be rechecked. —Scott (talk) 13:06, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

It all looks good to me; thanks for finishing the page! -- Tony (talk) 14:03, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Warrick Brownlow Pike

You know, sometimes, puppeteers make it easy for you guys on the wiki. Warrick has a video of all the characters he's performed on Furchester hotel Warrick's Character Reel. I'll dig through Youtube to find more videos like this to further expand the character galleries. I know Martin P. has a video showcasing some of his puppetry roles with both Henson productions and outside. Lamango (talk) 00:18, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Wow, what a great find! -- Tony (talk) 00:58, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Also got one of Allen Trautman Puppeteer Reel and some guy named Bruce Lanoil Lamango (talk) 07:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Table of Contents

I know on some wikis, there's a 'content' box that can be dropped down. I know someone had concerns about 'scrolling through every minor character Jim Henson did to just get to his main Sesame Street ones' and figured it'd be easier to have a table of contents so you can just click which show and either 'main, recurring, unnamed, voice'. What do you think, sirs?Lamango (talk) 00:16, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

The Biggies

I think we've got these down enough and can go a little crazy, so presenting Sandbox:Frank Oz characters. He's pretty easy to handle since after the 1970s, he pretty much doesn't do a lot of non-main characters. Organizing the Muppet stuff might be hard, but otherwise, everything seems good there. And unlike some of these other performers, a majority of the material is publically availible so anyone can find stuff and add it. - Shane (talk) 04:13, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

And here I was worried that I wouldn't have enough to do while catching up on podcasts. Thanks, Shane! -- Tony (talk) 14:07, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Hooray! I'm excited to dig into this. Look at how much of a nightmare it is to read the comma delimited list on his page now (screenshot attached). —Scott (talk) 14:36, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Also, Tony and I appear to be looking at this at the same time right now. Just so we don't duplicate each other's work, I'm gonna start to dig into his TMS characters this morning. —Scott (talk) 14:40, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Ah, don't worry about it. I've still got a bunch of SS episodes to update, so it'll take me a while to get to this. Have fun! -- Tony (talk) 15:21, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Once the pages that are currently in the sandbox are finished enough, might I suggest Karen Prell as the next one? -- Tony (talk) 15:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Putting this out there now; I was listening to a recent interview with Stephanie D'Abruzzo and she noted this year is the 10th anniversary of Jerry's passing. So, I say when we get the Richard Hunt page done, we start prepping that so we can have it all ready for August. - Shane (talk) 17:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I second that motion! -- Tony (talk) 17:50, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Jim Henson

Folks have been adding characters to Sandbox:Jim Henson characters who don't speak. Just a reminder that we need to provide sources for those. —Scott (talk) 12:24, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The Jim being a Mutation is listed in the Notes on their page The Mutations, and the Thog thing is here Take a Little One Step. Other articles has 'puppetry only' in them, like Frank didn't voice the wise old man in Labyrinth. Lamango (talk) 13:14, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Related to that, I'm unsure about the handling of a few Sam and Friends characters. That could use some sourcing as well, apart from characters who spoke often enough that there's no question (Kermit, Harry the Hipster, Yorick). We know that when characters spoke rather than lip syncing, Jim Henson did all the voices, but otherwise, he traded off with Jane Henson puppeteering (she's talked about doing Kermit at times) and later Bob Payne and Jerry Juhl. For example, Hank and Frank (Jim Henson isn't even listed on their page) were utility characters and in the surviving footage, with Kermit played by Jim Henson in the Huntley Brinkley sketch, and the other instance I'm aware of, chorus in the lip-synced "C'est Si Bon" (not sure if it's confirmed Jim Henson played Moldy Hay there, but that seems pretty likely as the main puppet).

Mushmellon, we only know from stills or museum displays (and again the character page doesn't list a performer because we've never seen him in action). Looking at Icky Gunk, the only known footage is lip-synced chorus in "I've Got You Under My Skin" with Kermit as main singer. I'm thinking it might be wise to narrow it to confirmed speaking by Jim Henson from surviving footage (maybe with links as sources and definitely a note if glimpsed at a screening or museum event), sourced from reliable text and cite it (museum placards, Red Book, whatever), or from behind the scenes photos performing characters. There seems to be a fair amount of photo evidence but it's not always on the character or show pages and sometimes not on the wiki at all. -- Andrew 17:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Are we gonna add more "puppetry only" things? Cause I remember Jim puppeteered Catguy in the Musicians of Bremen.Lamango (talk) 22:43, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I think that works best when it's a single pairing of puppeteer to the character and confirmed consistently, ideally through credits which is what the Creature Shop stuff did, but it works for including Alice Otter on Frank Oz characters. Behind the scenes shots show Jim Henson working different Bremen puppets at different times in magazine photos, so I'm not so sure it's worth tracking there (or even if it's the same Catgut puppet for the trumpet scenes as dialogue). -- Andrew 23:08, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Jim is heard as the Mutations in the Connie Stevens ep, so that can stay. Does Gonzo really warrant a mention on that "Demonstrations" section? It's not like the time he subbed for Oscar; it's a one-time thing of basically holding the puppet up (a demo video that A. we don't even have covered, and B. isn't even acknowledged on the listing). - Shane (talk) 23:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I am also in favor of dropping some of those Sam and Friends characters for which there's no video evidence (Icky Gunk's real voice has been heard once in something screened at MOMI awhile back). - Shane (talk) 23:23, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I just had a look at that demonstrations section and it's pretty confused anyway. I don't think either Gonzo or Waldo C. Graphic from "Secrets of the Muppets" should count as examples of "Jim Henson characters" (and there were other Jim Henson Hour "Jim briefly picks up a puppet and does one line, or shows how it works" moments). The Secrets Whatnot is kind of neat as it's wearing a sweater to match Jim and more of a character performance. The Gobo Fraggle thing where he's treating him as more of a prop than a character isn't (Jim Henson even says "He's being very quiet right now. If I were doing Gobo, he'd be yelling and jumping up and down)." I'll have to check on the Doozer but I think that may have been again just showing how the mechanics work. I think the demonstrations only work here, rather than some list or trivia note, if it feels like an actual performance as a Jim Henson character, even with him visible. I'll probably do some Sam and Friends pruning or else citation needed later (it wouldn't hurt to be more specific about which MOMI event had a vocal Icky Gunk, for example). -- Andrew 23:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Looking at it again, I don't think the "demonstrations" section works or is needed at all (Jim Henson says one line while showing how the Doozer moves in Down at Fraggle Rock). The king from The Muppets Make Puppets is kind of cute and the closest along with the Whatnot to actually being a character, but we don't have anything like this for Frank Oz for his participation in the same programs, and I don't think it's needed (it mostly seems to have resulted from looking at pictures on the wiki of Jim Henson operating or holding a puppet). If we think the Secrets Whatnot is worth keeping (he says two lines while Jim Henson is holding him), he can go in "Other" with Timrek the Grof and co. -- Andrew 02:06, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed "Demonstrations." It could make an interesting list on its own (there's more examples, for Jim Henson and others), but doesn't really fit with what people are looking for in a list of a performer's characters (and with just the gallery format, several raised more questions than they answered). -- Andrew 03:18, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

How do we go about puppeteers performing two characters at once? Cause like, say, Jim performed Kermit and Robin during the finale of the Diana Ross episode, or him performing Eric the Parrot and Rowlf in the finale of the Harry Belafonte episode? Dr.Teeth and the female whatnot in the Caberette number in the Joel Grey episode? Green Frackle and Green Vulture Frackle in the Vincent Price 'You've Got a Friend' number?Lamango (talk) 00:39, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Generally, the voices are what the pages focus on mostly. When there's a notable exception (such as the Dark Crystal characters) or consistency, they're covered. Paired performances based on puppetry shouldn't be covered; that's considered speculation. -- Tony (talk) 01:07, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Off topic but still related to Jim Henson... Is that him in this number? The Boy From Ipanema from the Petula Clark episode? It sounds like him doing his low monster voice. Lamango (talk) 04:53, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I was wondering about some of those Sam and Friends characters, though he likely had his hand in all of them at least once. I've especially wondered about Sam, since it's widely sourced that he never talked with his own voice. --Minor muppetz (talk) 11:24, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

For the Sam and Friends crew, I think that unless there's proof of Jim performing vocally for a character (like when they played a part in Punsmoke) they should be included for now. Though they've all likely lip synched to records, there is evidence of Jim performing Chicken Liver, Harry, Kermit, Moldy Hay (in Esskay commercials), Omar, Prof. Madcliffe, and Yorick. In these examples they're clearly more character driven rather than just pantomiming to records.

And about the "Boy from Impanema" referenced above, that's Richard Hunt. -- Tony (talk) 13:34, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Anyone else agree his page is ready for the world? - Shane (talk) 03:57, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree. -Minor muppetz (talk) 10:39, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Let's go for it! —Scott (talk) 11:23, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Caroll Spinney

Frank Oz is the son in "Brotherhood of Man", but the singing sounds like Spinney to me. Also not sure if he's some of the other AMs mixed in there. (YouTube) Thoughts? —Scott (talk) 13:56, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

That's for sure Caroll doing the singing. -- Anthony (talk) 07:44, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree, and I don't hear him at all during the song. The voices I hear are Henson, Spinney, Loretta Long, Bob McGrath, and Joe Raposo. -- Tony (talk) 13:38, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Richard Hunt as Snuffy

I started thinking something for the Richard Hunt characters page. It is known that he performed the back end of Mr. Snuffleupagus for a while, and for about a year performed the front half while Jerry Nelson continued with the voice. Could this be noted on the Richard Hunt characters page? I know some of these galleries do include characters who were only puppeteered by the performer but voiced by somebody else (I should check and see whether that's just Creature Shop examples). --Minor muppetz (talk) 00:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm inclined to say no. The whole "performer does puppetry to someone else's voice" doesn't really constitute it their "character," IMO (and I get that we have all those Dinosaurs examples and such). - Shane (talk) 00:53, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

J-E-R-R-Y

Jerry Nelson characters - Oops, here we go with probably the one that'll have he most characters! But I know we can does it! I tried to lay it out as best I could, "The Muppets"-wise; he does a lot of characters in Christmas Carol and Treasure Island that they really would not have worked in "Other." Any suggestions on restructuring are perfectly welcomed. And as I mentioned before, if we can get this done by the anniversary of his passing, that'll be a great thing we can share in tribute. - Shane (talk) 03:08, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Some notes on the Sesame "Voice only" section. Jerry did so much announcing and narrating for Sesame, and if we are tracking it there, do we track every single one-time segment like "YOU" and "Who's That?" in addition to recurring features? Are these technically characters? If we do track, I think we need a more specific header than "Voiceovers." I also think we're losing something lumping Mr. Jerry and other Muppets he only voiced in that list rather than having images. There are also several song inserts he sang for that aren't attributed to a specific character (e.g. "Don't Waste Water"). Do these count as well? — Jon (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I propose starting a sandbox for Announcers with headers for performers. It would be good to track anyway and help in this case for linking from character galleries. —Scott (talk) 19:07, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the thing we need to be clear on for these pages are that the listings are for "characters." The "Here is Your Life" announcer is not a character. I'm fine with a catch-all "Announcer for various Game Show sketches, etc." and if we want to delve into specifics, we can do it on his regular page or a new one as Scott proposes.

I agree on losing out on certain characters like Mr. Jerry; if the puppet looks like him, we should see it on that page. The songs he's done can live on his own page, I say. Again, they aren't really "characters." - Shane (talk) 19:44, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the precedent on other pages is for voiced-only *Muppets*, but when it's a named character with his own page as opposed to just a chorus role, I think it makes sense to put in a gallery. I'd actually thought of bringing up announcers/narrators, apart from The Announcer or A. Ligator who have clearer identities. Jerry Nelson did so many off-camera announcers on Sesame Street that on his page right now in listing characters it just says "various announcers." Listing a few recurring announcers makes more sense than one shots, but I think Scott has the best idea, that if we want to track more of those with that kind of precision, a new sandbox would be better, including all VOs of that kind by puppeteers or other relevant folks, or when announcers shift. Did Jerry Nelson and Marty Robinson ever switch off on announcing longer running segments, for example? That kind of deep dive would work better there. Plus as is we have Narrators with a sub-paragraph on announcers, so eventually the sandbox could lead to a comparable page. -- Andrew 23:20, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

The mention of how Jerry Nelson sang so many songs in inserts where he was just a voice-over and not an actual character led me to create a sandbox for songs where a Muppet performer is just a singing voice over. --Minor muppetz (talk) 03:53, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Michael, I like it. I think it could be expanded into any on-screen material that a performer has provided a voiceover for. For example, Olivia/Alaina Reed for "The Riddle." —Scott (talk) 11:12, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Unless there's some egregious oversight, I think Jerry is ready for prime time. —Scott (talk) 17:15, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

There a couple of missing pics/ones needing upgrades, but otherwise, yeah, it looks plenty good to go. I can't believe we did it! - Shane (talk) 17:38, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Incredible work everyone! These have all been a lot of fun, but the challenge of Jerry's career was particularly rewarding to go through. —Scott (talk) 17:51, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Definitely. I can't believe it only took a little more than two weeks; that's insane! -- Tony (talk) 17:54, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I just remembered: what about Sandbox:Jerry Nelson characters/temp? -- Tony (talk) 17:55, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Looks like there are some question marks in there. Can anyone confirm? I'll delete that page once we're sure. —Scott (talk) 18:39, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Jerry sourcing

Regarding minor Sesame Street characters: reminder to please link to the sketch referenced when possible. I added some HTML comments for those that need a link. Going through these small bits is quite time consuming already between finding the episode, getting just the right shot, doing clean-up, etc. Links should go with the pic anyway, so that when we're done, readers know what we're talking about, but it would be super helpful in the sandbox process to have them now. —Scott (talk) 23:06, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for doing that. There's been too many edits for me to check the history of who's been adding those unlinked entires. As much as I know about the show, I can't really see the name "Walter" and immediately know who that's supposed to be. - Shane (talk) 23:19, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

My bad; I've been adding so many characters just to get them prepped for images. I can take a break and start adding links. -- Tony (talk) 23:26, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Not your bad at all. You've been adding great stuff, but it's hard to get the visuals without the path to the goods. But yeah, if you could add some links before listing any more, that would be great. Then I can start getting some shots again and the cycle can continue. —Scott (talk) 23:41, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

(sniff) That's be-yootiful. Can do! -- Tony (talk) 23:57, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I've just went through everything with a "needs link" note; anything else before I move on to the season 16 inserts? -- Tony (talk) 01:47, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that! Feel free to move on to more seasons. If you could add links as you go, that would be great! —Scott (talk) 02:04, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, this is super nitpicky, but we should try to match the descriptions we use in the gallery to what we've been calling the sketch in the corresponding table. A few times I've had trouble figuring out which sketch was being referenced. Thanks!

In related news, medium-sized screenshot dump coming soon. —Scott (talk) 18:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Jerry linking

I ran a database query to compile this — Sandbox:Jerry Nelson characters/temp. May or may not help with what we haven't added yet. It's essentially the important (for this project) parts of what you'd find in Special:WhatLinksHere. —Scott (talk) 15:22, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I think this helps immensely; thanks a lot! -- Tony (talk) 15:25, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I took Jerry out of the character templates for Cookie Monster's Sister, John Cleese's Agent, and Newt. The first two are too hard to tell and the third is definitely not him. As for the four items in the right column, I didn't see any in 0923, 2000 and 2536 are announcers (did we decide to make that announcers page?), and "Turkey in the Straw" was added to the voice only list. So, unless there's something I'm missing, I can go ahead and delete that sandbox. —Scott (talk) 21:39, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I just moved the last of the info, so it's good to go. -- Tony (talk) 21:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Sandbox:Announcers has started but it's probably going to need its own discussion. Apart from the same lack of linking with the Jerry sandbox for a lot of items (making it unclear what some things are), there's some confusing handling for when an on-camera Muppet (like the Answer Lady announcer) appears as well as any voice-off. Gary Owens has been added (incomplete, but I think that's better handled on his own page anyway, and for The Muppets Go Hollywood he appears too). Jon and I have discussed whether eventually to add professional VO announcers who've been heard in Muppet segments (like Jonathan Cook for "Super Grover 2.0" and "Cookie's Crumby Pictures."). But for now, I think it makes more sense to focus on the Muppet performers or related folks (two items on Jon Stone Cameos are announcers and there may be more), since while professional and celebrity announcers' pages are basically designed to include that info, for the Muppet folk, part of the point to the sandbox is that it's too complicated to fit on the performer or character pages, especially for Jerry Nelson or Martin P. Robinson. -- Andrew 21:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Jerry's main characters

After spending so much time focusing on the minutiae, I'm coming around to Jerry's main characters again. A couple things on both The Muppets and Sesame Street:

His main "The Muppets" characters seem to be alphabetical, but this feels off to me. Camilla was only definitively "Camilla" in four Muppet Show episodes, and I think it's fair to say that Floyd was his *main* main character on The Muppet Show. I think a better order for this space would be: Floyd, Robin, Strangepork, Crazy Harry, Lew, Pops, Camilla, Statler.

For Sesame Street, there are some that feel missing from his main characters even if they didn't have the longevity as others. Particularly thinking of Herbert Birdsfoot, Farley, Sam the Robot, Simon Soundman, and Snuffy. Those seem like characters I would think readers would expect to see right away for Jerry's Sesamography to the point that it looks strange to not have them there.

Thoughts? —Scott (talk) 00:30, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I think Lew and Camilla should come before Crazy Harry considering their presence in the movies, books, etc.; I'm not too sure where Statler would be placed, though, but it was one of his more frequent characters in the '90s, especially on Muppets Tonight. Likely before Strangepork, probably.

As for Sesame, Snuffy definitely needs to be included in the main characters, and given his longevity (as late as 1998) Simon as well. -- Tony (talk) 00:45, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed with Snuffy, but some of the others feel rather subjective. [Edited because of shuffling on the page, and slow loading, confused me as to who was where]. Maybe create a "major recurring" section to better distinguish a strong second tier from Sir John Feelgood, Snitch, and the like? (To say nothing of Delivery Man). All of those suggested would fit pretty comfortably there (and Frazzle, Fred the Wonder Horse probably), but Snuffy can go in main. That's my feeling right now (but I'm also distracted by simulwatching Peter Falk). -- Andrew 00:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Re "The Muppets," that all sounds fine to me.

Re Sesame; I went with an even six even though he did a lot of characters, but I guess with the dynamic size of the pages it doesn't matter? Snuffy should be there, you're right. I feel like it's splitting hairs almost. Like, sure Farley continued to appear as late as 2000, but his material by then was much fewer and further between than, say, Mumford or Biff. Maybe go with Andrew's idea, but apply a similar method to some of the other pages; we can put those "major recurring" characters at the top of Recurring, then follow up with the rest. - Shane (talk) 01:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, some of those recurring folks are used twice only, used annually for about four or five years, or just segments that didn't last. Whether Simon Soundman should be there over Frazzle might be debatable, but that both are a notch or more above The Genie and Phil Harmonic is pretty obvious and a lot harder to dispute. This is less of an issue usually for Muppet Show since with exceptions like the above point on Camilla (who recurred more in the movies and later projects than on the show), recurring were usually far more occasional than main, and of course we're not sorting out decades worth of characters and running segments. It won't be needed on every page (Fran Brill characters seems to work fine as is, for example) but I can definitely imagine a similar need when we get to Martin P. Robinson say. -- Andrew 01:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

So, what are we using to base our idea of a major recurring character? For me, it would include longevity in the segments they've appeared in lasted, episodic appearances, the amount of episodes they've appeared as a prominent character, and possibly their prominence in merchandise. If these are the cases, my proposed list for "minor recurring" characters would be: The Big Bad Wolf, Cyranose de Bergerac, Farley, Frazzle, Fred the Wonder Horse, Herbert Birdsfoot, Humpty Dumpty, Little Jerry, maybe Marty, The Mudman, Mr. Chatterly, Rodeo Rosie, Sam the Robot, Simon Soundman, Sir John Feelgood, and Tina Twiddlebug. -- Tony (talk) 23:50, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

That list feels way too long, and some definitely make me wonder. The Mudman, we mostly know from scripts and merchandise, and as far as preparing a Muppet performer's character gallery, I don't think prominence in merchandise really should factor in. His page has a nice list and pictures but I don't think he really meets the case, or Marty (four songs or sketches even if one was reworked on albums a bit, two street appearances), but like with the starting question and as Shane said, this is getting rather subjective (I'd dump Humpty Dumpty too, six appearances even if as a major guest character, Cyranose de Bergerac according to the character page has one sketch and three episodes). Mr. Chatterly feels borderline (five sketches, though rerun more often than a lot of the others and part of a recurring segment, and one street appearance; there's a lot of characters like that on other performer pages who we wouldn't even think of as major, though more probably remember him than Wanda Cousteau). -- Andrew 23:42, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough on cutting the Mudman, Marty (who I think only appeared in seasons two and three), Cyranose, and Humpty; I'd add Sir John to that list of cuts, too.

EDITED TO ADD: The Big Bad Wolf is borderline for me considering how many performers he's had, so he wouldn't really be one of his main recurring characters, would he? -- Tony (talk) 23:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

In most cases, I don't think changing performers matters so much if the performer in question played them the most often. But in this specific case, it's more "who played the specific blue puppet most often" (seems like half a dozen, maybe four or so as other wolf puppets) and he's still more of a fringe character in general, as are a lot of the fairytale/nursery rhyme folks even if they do reappear (with exceptions like Baby Bear, Prince Charming to a degree, or Goldilocks for awhile). I think we're whittling it down pretty well, if we do go this Major Recurring Character route, and so we have a better idea if and when we do apply it to other pages as well. -- Andrew 02:36, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't specifically thinking of the blue version but the character in general, as Jerry has also performed both the purple and green versions in other sketches. -- Tony (talk) 02:46, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Michael Elizabeth Huston

Michael Elizabeth Huston characters seemed like a quite enough gallery to do without having to sandbox it. However, our page for Episode 2121 credits her as a grouch, but I can't figure out how we know that. Here's a clip. —Scott (talk) 23:15, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

I put that in there; she's heard performing the grey grouch with the blue/black eyebrows leaving Hooper's Store. I compared the performers of that season to the character's voice and performance, and I eliminated those I was a lot more familiar with such as Fran or Camille. There's only four voices mixed in with the sound effects and David: Huston, Clash, Arciero, and Spinney. -- Tony (talk) 00:14, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm confident in Tony's abilities to identify voices. I can definitely hear Kevin as the other generic Grouch. -- Anthony (talk) 00:23, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting Tony is making it up; that's not the issue. I don't hear it, nor do I understand how it can be heard. It's just a jumble of voice noise. Anyone else? —Scott (talk) 09:46, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I focused on the four Grouch performers at the very end; I recognized Kevin, and obviously Pam and Caroll. By process of elimination I compared the remaining voice with the other performers of that season and deduced it was Huston. The other noise from the ruckus was stock sound effects and the same audio of the Riverbottom Nightmare Band they used in many other episodes. -- Tony (talk) 13:03, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Jerry Juhl

Any chance we can do a Jerry Juhl one? It'd be small and easy to do. Lamango (talk) 08:16, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, definitely. We're trying not to keep more than two working in the sandbox, so maybe after Steve and Eric are done we can tackle the next one. —Scott (talk) 12:40, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

People with not many characters

I tried to add some to the list, like personal favorites, Gord Roberston and the likes, but since they have so little characters...Maybe we can make a page for 'Non-Full Time Performers'? Like a page with galleries for Daniel Seagren and the four characters he performed, and then Cynthia Adler with her three characters? And we can put these people in alphabetical order? I could make a sandbox to like, try to show an example?Lamango (talk) 23:53, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I think a page like that with a number of different people would become a mess pretty quickly. If a performer has a smaller number of characters that don't warrant their own page, we could always consider doing a gallery on their main article. —Scott (talk) 00:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm looking at some of the 'guest' puppeteers, like Nigel Plaskitt has a plethora of characters, but was only mainly used for UK productions. Like, at least over 30 characters for Mr. Plaskitt. But yeah, we can try this gallery to a page thing to someone like Anthony Asbury, who only really had what, four Wubulous World characters? Lamango (talk) 00:18, 21 June 2022 (UTC)