Forum:Character galleries

Forums: Index > Article Content > Character galleries

Participation in the Muppet Wiki Forums requires a full understanding of the Rules and Etiquette.

---

A couple years ago, we started Caroll Spinney characters, and I've been so happy about how it turned out that I keep finding myself wondering why we don't do it for other performers.

When you look at the "character credits" section of pretty much any performer, it kind of looks like a mess. They're structured like bulleted lists, but the longer lists end up looking very cramped, sometimes with lots of parenthetical to add necessary notes. Plus, they're just links to characters, so you have to click each one to see who it is, and then click back to the link.

The gallery style we honed for Spinney is several magnitudes better. I already started Fran Brill characters to see what another performer might look like. The headings are different from Spinney's, and I think that's okay; we can structure these in the way that best works for that individual. This is obviously a medium-to-big sized project, so I figured I'd get a conversation going before we plowed full speed into these. —Scott (talk) 18:41, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Initial thoughts, I like the general idea. I am a little concerned about it turning into users just pasting "No image" for entries from the credit lists, especially as we've found more info for non-speaking and crowd bits. Right now, Brill looks pretty close to a decent model (not sure how to handle stuff like "pigeons" in The Producers where there's a team of puppeteers, nobody speaks, nothing can be pinpointed, but since she so rarely did Creature Shop projects, I think it's more useful on her page than it would be for, say, Mak Wilson or somebody).

A frequent credit on albums and in season bios for Fran Brill was "various little girls." These mostly coalesced into Prairie Dawn (or occasionally Betty Lou) but that's the kind of thing where at most, one collective entry or just a written note would handle it best (since for Spinney, part of the purpose was tracking down non Big Bird/Oscar roles which were fewer, so even unnamed roles were included, but with Brill, Jerry Nelson, Jim Henson, etc., that can easily become overkill).

One thing this might help with though is pinning down when puppeteers have been stuck in the category "Animated Voice Actors" with no specifics. We know Fran Brill has done her share in Sesame inserts, but apart from a couple "singing over something" instances, we haven't tracked most of it, at least not in an easily searchable form. So that might be more useful than when it comes to "unnamed one line Anything Muppet woman #37" or whatever.

More on this when I have time (if!) Generally, I support it (especially the visual effect), just thinking of how to define the scope, since we know from wiki history this kind of thing can easily get out of hand (it happens often with just the pattern pages as is). And of course, the old sourcing rules apply (if you have to say "I think it was Fran Brill who sneezed for this character," either bring it up in a discussion for consensus or leave it alone; crowd vocals are often hard to pick out and again, as with every extra or random AM, not that helpful). Overall, I think it's a good idea as a supplement, if not a replacement, for credit lists and more useful for casual users. -- Andrew 19:02, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I have similar concerns. I think so long as we keep an eye on things, we can hold these pages to the same standard we do any other page on the wiki. —Scott (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I've also been kind of mixed on those character credits, particularly when we note characters so minor, they don't have a page; for example, on the Jim Henson page, we have "apple from Bilingual Fruit Song" or "One Banana singer." Stuff like that really clutters up those lists. I had thought about generalizing it to "various Anything Muppets in ____," but creating a Jim Henson characters page at some point would be a unique way to present each role. At the same time, we could also simplify the performer credits to main roles. — Jon (talk) 19:11, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed! A gallery allows us to showcase characters we don't need pages for. —Scott (talk) 19:15, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, some users have been so thrilled by identifications from sources that they add to those lists without often being clear. At the least, if we do feel the need to track all of those on the performer page (rather than a character gallery), at this point, the old "characters in alphabetical order" approach (which has often gone by the wayside or been inconsistent anyway) doesn't work too well anymore. I'm thinking two bullets for series work, one "Main/major recurring" (or similar wording) and "Minor/one-shot" or whatever (obviously some POV and who someone thinks is major, but it's pretty clear Farley would come sooner in any list of Jerry Nelson credits than Felix the Grouch or Fico and likewise on Muppet Show roles (originally, a lot of listings for movies and specials, carried over from the long offline Punchandjewelry.com Muppet Character lists, omitted major recurring Muppets, just new characters, but that's also shifted, and those are easier to cleanup). -- Andrew 19:27, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

As for the gallery idea, the fact that Spinney is a solid (if helped by limited roles overall compared to the others) model is a great start, and I think with Brill (or at most another sandbox, maybe for Jim Henson as that could definitely get complicated), we can figure it out without need for too many boxes of sand, but more talking and tweaking definitely. I don't think a gallery would help a ton either with "unidintified fish in singing chorus" stuff (that's now being listed on song pages anyway) where often someone else dubbed the vocals anyway ("On My Pond" is an example, where document sources identified characters who have no names or lines beyond maybe chorus, if they weren't dubbed; all non-fish/Kermit roles are silent). That's the kind of thing I think is most helpful on a song/sketch page, *maybe* on a performer's page (at this point I feel like all vague background chorus stuff, unless there's clear solos and maybe even then, is the same as a silent extra for our purposes) but not so much in a gallery. But would help clarify "apple in bilingual song" stuff (where it is featured speaking/singing at least, so that's a bit over fish).

ETA: I don't know why it didn't occur to me sooner. With stuff from scripts, behind the scenes clips, or other documentation, we've been able to identify who filled in for non-speaking uses of main characters, or right handed or did Kermit's legs. But we don't note it on the performer pages (just the relevant sketch or song) unless it was a consistent pairing. So silent/chorus Muppets partly or wholly dubbed by vocalists stuff seems to fall pretty much into the same camp, for either puppeteer pages or a gallery (probable exceptions if the group is notable in itself, i.e. has a page, or there's distinct solos where you could even screengrab the puppeteer's specific contribution, like Zizzy Zoomers or The Frazzletones where they all get solo moments). That feels like a useful limit for puppeteer or performer role gallery pages, at least to start with (thanks to the additions on the performer pages, take a certain amount of double checking now to weed out some of the "just a silent background puppet" moments from characters who spoke or had on-screen names, but very doable). Thoughts? -- Andrew 19:27, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I think that's reasonable for a silent background character situation. Maybe we go back to just a bulleted list for those on the bottom or something. —Scott (talk) 19:40, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I moved the "All Dressed Up" to the Voices Only section (renamed from Audio). It's still a Fran Brill character, we can just put it in a different spot.

Also, what should we do about the filmography on her article? We don't need to track characters in two places, so I'm thinking we remove all the character names but keep the projects with a note at top to see "Fran Brill characters" for all the characters she's played. I think we could probably do this for any performer we make a gallery for. —Scott (talk) 12:21, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I think it might be a good idea as long as we monitor it well enough. Would we put some kind of limit on what performers we'd do this for? - Shane (talk) 21:47, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

That's a good question. No disrespect to someone like, I dunno, Bruce Edward Hall, but I don't think he needs a character gallery page. Maybe we set a rule somewhere around a dozen or so characters before they warrant their own character gallery. Close to the guidelines we use for cameo pages with the numbers boosted a little.

Also, I'm wondering if it would be in our best interests to go through these one or two at a time so as not to get overwhelmed and stretch ourselves thin. I'm thinking if we start focusing on Jerry Nelson before we're done with Richard Hunt, the end result might suffer. Not that any wiki page is ever an end result, we can always update, but these things tend to get put on the back burner and forgotten when we move on to other things. So maybe we just keep an open dialogue here about what we're working on now and what to tackle next. —Scott (talk) 21:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I like this too. I've often been frustrated that a performer's main characters are buried among his one-shot characters. (I think we should add Big Bird and Oscar to the top of Spinney's gallery page.) --GrantHarding (talk) 14:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

So, my thought on existing filmographies is to leave the lists, but remove instances where characters exceed a few. So, on the Fran Brill example, we'd list Sesame Street: Prairie Dawn, Zoe, and others.... That way we're still listing the credits on the performer pages, but we're also not duplicating the character lists. Does that work? —Scott (talk) 00:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm rather mixed on just two names and "others" for regular characters. Maybe six major characters tops? In Fran's case, Roxie Marie and Little Bird are really the only other significant characters and both minor in comparison, but I'm thinking more that when we get to Jim Henson, Frank Oz, etc. it will look a bit weird (would Henson just get "Kermit, Rowlf, and others" on The Muppet Show, or Waldorf for number two?) and those who don't click to the gallery will be wondering. Some of that can be fixable through adjusting the main text (it's odd to have a picture of Brill performing Little Bird and no mention beyond that caption), but some people will go straight to the credits. Since the longest miscellany list on Fran Brill's page (Sex and Violence) ends at six, that (maybe four if that seems too long?) feels like a reasonable cut-off to me (if there's only two significant regular/recurring characters and the rest utility or one-shots, the "and others" approach makes more sense anyway). -- Andrew 02:43, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

That's a good point about Henson and Oz, etc. I guess I was thinking that most major characters would be in the body of the article, but you're right, some folks just scroll down to the filmography. —Scott (talk) 10:58, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Voice ID: Fran Brill

Can anyone confirm if this is Fran Brill? It's the Fairy Napmother from Episode 4078. I'm not the best at IDing female voices and I'm particularly bad with some of the other women credited that season. —Scott (talk) 12:53, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm positive that's Fran. There's early hints of Mrs. Crustworthy in there. -- Tony (talk) 13:40, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Great, thanks! I just started Fairy Napmother. —Scott (talk) 14:33, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

We know Fran Brill started out on The Great Santa Claus Switch. I skimmed through and found some candidates for who she might be playing:

• https://youtu.be/yhUqto784sI?t=2228 36:38
• https://youtu.be/yhUqto784sI?t=2327 38:47
• https://youtu.be/yhUqto784sI?t=2701 45:01

I'm pretty sure about that third one; the Droop-like character. But I'm less sure about the first two (same character, different time codes). Any thoughts from the voice-chasing experts? —Scott (talk) 16:35, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm actually not too sure the third one is Brill; it sounds a little like Sokol to me. But the other two (the Snerf who says "I didn't say anything." and the green Scoff-like "YA DROPPED HIM!" one) are definitely Brill. -- Tony (talk) 17:10, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Third one sounds a little too soft to be Fran, but those first two clips I'd say are her. - Shane (talk) 20:52, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Adding more character galleries

Fran Brill characters is looking awesome, so I moved it out of the sandbox. I quickly started Sandbox:Louise Gold characters and that's starting to shape up nice, too. Last night, Michael started three more: Sandbox:Kathryn Mullen characters, Sandbox:Camille Bonora characters, and Sandbox:Brian Muehl characters. They're all a very basic start, but I think we should hold off on starting any more for now. With big projects like these, we tend to split our attention and these things get forgotten. It's best to focus on what we've got now and get them into good shape before moving on to even more.

One note on those that we currently have sandboxed: Special:WhatLinksHere is a powerful tool for determining where else on the wiki someone or something is referenced and probably has a lot more information than is currently in either of those performers' filmographies. —Scott (talk) 13:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Good idea on holding off on new pages; they could also result in many edit conflicts. They've been surprisingly fun to fill out, and really show off the versatility of the performers. Excellent work, everybody! -- Tony (talk) 13:28, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Order?

These are looking really good! I know we're holding off before we create pages for everybody, but something occurred to me about the order of characters. Right now, everything is broken down by production, and then major/minor characters within that production. But (and I'm just thinking out loud here), I wonder if it might be better to have the major characters from every production at the top.

Suppose the page we ultimately create for Jim Henson has The Muppet Show at the top. Kermit, Rowlf, and Dr. Teeth would be right at the top, as they should be. But then you'd have to scroll all the way past Silver Beak and Wally Whoopie before you ever saw Ernie. That doesn't seem right to me.

Feel free to tear this idea apart! --GrantHarding (talk) 21:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Personally, I'm not sure. I think it would break my OCD, lol. It's probably fine if people see a header labelled The Muppet Show and know not to find Ernie in that section. They can always skip down to the Sesame section linked in the table of contents. —Scott (talk) 21:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Could put some lead text (I know, not as catchy as pictures) that highlights the half-dozen tip-top-tier major characters of the performers.

Something like "Jim Henson is best known as the performer of Kermit the Frog, he also performed Rowlf the Dog, Dr. Teeth, Waldorf and the Swedish Chef for the Muppets along with Ernie on Sesame Street and Cantus on Fraggle Rock" or "Frank Oz has performed many characters, including Miss Piggy, Fozzie Bear and Animal for the Muppets; and Bert, Grover and Cookie Monster on Sesame Street." -

The Carol Spinney page has a bit of lead text and could work as a compromise to highlight the big dogs -- so readers can get that Jerry Nelson did Floyd (Muppets), the Count (Sesame), Gobo (Fraggle), and Emmet (Otter) without having to scroll through a sea of Whatnots and Anythings. BradFraggle (talk) 15:25, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Voice ID: Louise Gold

Regarding [1], how is it known that Louise Gold puppeteers a tourist rat in MTI if what we hear is Steve Whimire's voice? Aren't there a whole bunch of tourist rats? Originally added here [2] —Scott (talk) 12:08, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I thought I read it from a Muppet Central interview, but it doesn't show up there. The only "evidence" is from a Muppet Central quiz. Emma Shane would know. -- Tony (talk) 12:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I marked it with a CITE tag for now until we can figure it out. —Scott (talk) 13:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

For the record, I think the credit was meant for the tourist guide, but Whitmire performed another rat throughout the film. ("And margaritas at the midnight buffet!" "And the food is to die for!") The lyric book from the MTI soundtrack calls her "Donna Plagueman." -- Tony (talk) 14:20, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, her name is Donna?! We have a page for Mr. Plagueman but not his wife. BradFraggle (talk) 15:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Not really readable, but gives a good idea of the version I have.

My fold-out lyric sheet for the MTI soundtrack CD doesn't have any character names. Did I overlook it, or is there another version? —Scott (talk) 20:31, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

You are overlooking them; they're in the lyrics, attributing the lines to whoever is singing them. - Shane (talk) 20:53, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, dammit, you're right. I was so focused on the credits that I overlooked the song contents. Thanks!

On a related note, here's a good shot of Donna Plagueman if anyone wants to start that article. —Scott (talk) 22:09, 20 August 2021 (UTC)