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Proposal[]

The ToughPigs Discord has encouraged some new folks to start editing the wiki, one of whom is Kristi who makes some amazing prop replicas. She recently expressed an interest in expanding some of the Labyrinth comics coverage and I shared a bit about how I've been wanting to do something along those lines for a while (but haven't had the time, personally).

I wanted to open the discussion up here about how we might go about doing that. One idea I'd like to start with is individual pages for each comic book issue, rather than lump-summing them as we have in the past. Most comics wikis do this and I think it works pretty well. We also have the advantage of no other wikis covering individual comics for anything we cover (as far as I know).

Each page would have room for each issue's cover, all the variant covers, full writing and artist credits, cover date, street date, list of characters, summary, links to external reviews, etc. We'd also need to come up with a sensible category structure which we don't really have right now.

As a test, and because it something Kristi has asked about working on, I thought we could start with Labyrinth: Coronation as a test. Thoughts and comments? —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 22:41, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I think that's a really nice idea! We've got The Muppet Show Comic Book split up into four-issue story arcs, but presenting comics in single issues is fine too. If Kristi wants to expand the Labyrinth: Coronation issues, that's great. —Danny latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 21:15, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Oh I think that's a great example, I like how that page also shows off the collected volumes of the comics. We'll want to do that for Labyrinth Coronation since it had the three volume paperback/hardcover releases.
Once we have a structure nailed down I'd be happy to apply it to other Labyrinth comic books as well, including the manga series. We may need to discuss how to address some of the shorter comic stories that have been re-released in different collections/formats. Maybe they get their own pages that we can then link to?-- KOMakesThings (talk) 02:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
In general, I'd say it's a good idea when there's someone willing and able to do the expansions *and* it makes sense, case by case. I'm not really convinced yet we need individual pages for Fraggle Rock (Marvel) since it's the same artist and writer for every issue, and only the first two weren't adapting TV episodes. That's something where I'd have to see persuasive sandboxes or a whole lot more than what's on a pretty slim page, beyond the fact that comic book sites list each issue individually for collector's purposes (we don't do that with video releases, for example). There's basically just not a ton of additional stuff (external reviews, etc.) to add for that title beyond the missing dates which should have been there (and letterers; Rick Parker for all issues save the first where it was Grace Kremer, wife of Harvey/Star line artist Warren Kremer). Otherwise we'd just have a whole lot more stubs with one or two sentences and a box. So that's one of those where I'd say we should wait until someone can beef up what's there and it looks like it merits breaking out.
Also we'd already discussed off-wiki about limiting Farscape coverage in some areas, so we'd have to decide how to handle that as well in potentially breaking out every individual issue.
It also wouldn't work for us I think with the Harvey reprints of Muppet Babies, but would for the original Marvel run issues (every issue has new characters and most have multiple stories, and a more varied lineup of contributors). But I'd agree that Labyrinth: Coronation is a good starting point to figure this out.
KO, I'm not sure about creating individual story pages, but there's a template, {{eka-books}}. It's similar to our first/eka templates on Sesame Street episode pages, a way to note when and where something first appeared. Story Land is an example, and you can see it on a lot of The Sesame Street Library/Sesame Street Treasury pages, like here. The layout might also be a good model to follow for those kinds of reprints or story collections. -- Andrew Emoji-droolAdminsig 03:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Thank you, I think that's a good solution for the shorter comics. We can take stock of all the shorter comics and establish where they first appeared/what collections they appear in, and once we've got a list made we can have that discussion on how we want to treat them case by case as you suggested. In the meantime, is it safe to assume we can expand the coverage of the longer comic series', like Labyrinth Coronation and Return to Labyrinth series? With Labyrinth Coronation if we don't want to expand it out issue by issue we can expand it out according to the collected release (3 volumes, 3 article pages, with notes on what issues each volume collects)--KOMakesThings (talk) 02:14, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
There's a consensus of three admins right now for using Coronation as the test case, so I think that's enough go ahead. While volumes might be preferable in some cases, right now Coronation only has solictation lines for each issue. So I think it might be up to you, KO, which approach you'd want to start with. I'm not sure about doing Return to Labyrinth at the same time, unless you want to start there instead of Coronation (there's character names redlinked there which have been empty for over 15 years, so I wouldn't mind). I'm just a little unsure about two concurrent test cases, plus in general, we find even amongst ourselves it's harder to bring multiple projects like that to completion if started together, or limiting the number. But I think we're pretty much agreed on Coronation being good to go, as you figure out the approach and we can assist or chime in with input (at least when we have time! Mine is darn limited these days, I admit). -- Andrew Emoji-droolAdminsig 18:48, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
I've been busy with school recently, and with the free time I do have, I keep forgetting to make a reply here. I'm in agreement with expanding our comic coverage and would especially love to see more Labyrinth stuff. I think Coronation is a great test for the type of expansion Scott is talking about. Which comics gets that type of expansion can be worked out as we go along. - Maddox latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 18:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Cool, thanks all. I'm gonna try to take a stab at a template, page layout, and category structure tomorrow. At least lay the groundwork so Kristi, as a new editor, doesn't get overwhelmed with technical stuff. —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 19:48, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Template discussion[]

Sorry for the delay on this, but I've got some time today to do some template code.

So, my thought on the infobox for comic book issues was to base it on what I designed for the Wonder Woman Wiki, but matching what we use here for Template:Book, Albums, etc. The version on the WWWiki includes fields for 1) the series the issue is part of, 2) issue number, 3) cover date, 4) actual release date, 5) links to previous and next issues, and 6) the synopsis as solicited by the publisher. It is located on the article in the same space most infoboxes can be found: aligned on the upper-right.

This infobox works in conjunction with a separate template that appears inline on the article with information about the story title and then separate entries for each of the creatives. It was done this way because lots of comic books have multiple stories with their own creative teams. See w:c:wonder-woman:Wonder Woman v5a 798 for an example of how this layout works. You can see that having the creatives in the infobox wouldn't really work in this case (DC Database does it and it's very cumbersome).

However, I'm not sure if we should do the two-template approach, or if it makes more sense for us to put everything in the upper-right infobox. For something like Labyrinth: Coronation, which we've decided we'll use as a test bed for this new expansion, I think an all-in-one infobox template would be fine. But if we get to other titles that have more complicated creative teams, like in the Wonder Woman #798 example, it could start to get messy.

So I guess I'm looking for some feedback about which approach we think works best for how we're going to cover comic book issues. —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 15:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Basically, it will depend on the comic. The #798 example would apply to Muppet Babies comics sometimes, possibly the APE Sesame Street comics (we don't have any artist/writer info on that page, just cover artists for variants). My own thought would be, we used to have Template:Blank2 and still do for more complicated situations in some cases. So maybe take that approach to create the more complex template (or Template:Comic-expanded) or just make it when we'll actually be applying it. Other usage would be for reprint omnibuses and such, though book template is likely still best approach there anyway.
Series numbering is something that for most of what we'll be covering won't apply or isn't actually given (as in they may be separated but Archaia or whoever didn't actually use). Even Muppet Babies never went to a "vol. 2." You could include it and we just leave it blank if publisher never specified or default to one, but so far I can't find anything where it's actually needed. Magazines (Muppet Magazine did this) often use volume to represent year, but comic books generally only bother if they restart the series with new numbering. So that's why it hasn't applied to any findable Muppet Wiki relevant title I can find to date. When specified, it will always be 1. So it's more of a "do we want this to look like other sites/wikis" do thing, I think, than something that actually applies or helps navigation in our case. BOOM! Studios didn't even bother to list volumes, for example, so we'd just be sticking one (1) in. Or in case it ever does happen (not too likely, since it would require the comic to have the same title with the same publisher and for them to decide to renumber abd add the vol. 2 designation, as opposed to just using a slightly different title, and it never applies if it's a new publisher).
Synopsis in box, I can't find examples on the Wonder Woman wiki but that strikes me as too much to put in the info box, given how long they tend to be for stuff we're covering (multi paragraph press stuff in the case of the Dark Crystal/Labyrinth spin-offs). -- Andrew Emoji-droolAdminsig 17:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
I'm cool with splitting them off into issue pages, if I'm understanding this all right. Not super crazy about that WW example; can't we put that stuff into the info box? - Shane latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 18:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
It's quite probable I didn't express myself clearly, but yeah, that's what I'm asking. Should it all go into the infobox and become a mess or should some of the info go into the body of the article? —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 18:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't think it'd be a mess to have: release date, author, writer. Like, Series and Issue number can be the header. We wouldn't need to put the "Next" or "Previous" in there, we already have a template for that. - Shane latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 18:37, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
I have a tendency to over-explain, so I may have convoluted what I was trying to say. This might be a better example; compare the following two pages on two different wikis covering the same comic book issue:
DC Database has all the issue info and creative info in the infobox. Because the issue has so many creatives, the infobox is not only overloaded, but it's disconnected from the sections within the article that detail the story. Compare with WWWiki where the infobox only has the info pertinent to the overall issue while the section headers within the article deal with the breakdown. —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 18:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Oh, okay. Yeah of those two, the DC one is not at all practical for us. - Shane latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 18:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Right. Not a concern for Labyrinth and Muppet Show comics, I don't think. But we'd run into it with Fraggle and Sesame comics. —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 18:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Chiming in to concur that the DC Database approach has the potential to be a bit overwhelming when used for anything that has more than one creative team in the same issue. So based on that I think I'd vote for info box that only has the information pertinent to the overall issue, with section headings used for everything else. That would give us a bit more freedom if in the future we want to apply the template to other pages like the Labyrinth 30th Anniversary Special.
Would the template include recommended section headings to populate as you build the page? Maybe some are flagged as optional, dependent on the content of the page? KOMakesThings (talk) 01:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback everyone. It sounds like the WW example is the better way to go. I thought so too, but I wanted to be sure I was moving forward on it with the visibility of the rest of the community since it's a bit different from the way we've typically done infoboxes. I'll try to get a first draft done today so we can see what it looks like in practice.
Kristi, as for auto-populating the template, that might be possible. Using WWWiki again as an example, I have something like this in place if you look at this. The buttons on top will fill in the fields so all you have to do is enter the pertinent information. We've never used that here, but I'll let the rest of the community weigh in on whether or not we think that's necessary. We tend to keep our templates simpler (and cleaner) than most other wikis. Alternatively, if you scroll below the edit portion of any page in source edit mode (this forum post included), we do have a few templates that can be auto-inserted on a page. —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 11:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
I'd be okay with keeping things simple if that's more in line with how the wiki operates, though I do like the templates that can be auto inserted onto the page. But we can always just keep a mental list of sections we want to cover and just refer back to previously created pages if we have a question about consistency. Maybe that's the better option, might be less intimidating for folks who want to jump in and start editing, and means we aren't trying to fit a square peg into a round hole if a series turns out to not fit quite perfectly into the template KOMakesThings (talk) 02:07, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Labyrinth Coronation sandbox[]

Okay, so I created two new templates and included them on Sandbox:Labyrinth: Coronation 1 where we can do some refining before we're ready to start rolling these out.

A few things:

  • As with all templates, fields left blank will not manifest on the page.
  • Per Kristi's comment about self-populating, I don't want to fill up the under-edit space, but usage is included on Template:Comicissue and Template:Comiccredits, formatted in a way that should be easy to copy and paste.
  • The "story" field in the Comiccredits template will manifest Story if left blank. This should be fine for Labyrinth: Coronation, but will come in handy for the Sesame Street and Fraggle Rock issues when we get to them.

Please kick back with comments, suggestions, changes, etc. —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 22:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm wondering if having the Synopsis as part of the template is necessary, or helpful. Considering the synopsis will be the most often edited part of the page, having it part of the template makes it more difficult to edit compared to a regular header, where you can just click "edit selection." I'm also not a huge fan of the inconsistency between the header styles of "Story," "Synopsis," and "Covers." Other than that, it seems good. - Maddox latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 22:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Good call on the header styles. Story and Covers should match as they're both supposed to be H1s. Synopsis is an H2 because it's a subheader for that story. I think this will make more sense for issues that have multiple stories.
Also good call on Synopsis. I'll make those fixes. —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 23:00, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Credits looks good. I'm thinking either an "Additional credits" where applicable at bottom (cover artists, editorial, special thanks) like we do with TV and movies for stuff beyond the box, or just leave existing pages (for graphic novels or one-shots) as is. Such as The Dark Crystal comic. Checking, existing credits is incomplete but is more complex than the usual format, including a color supervisor, *eight* colorists, three designers, and a host of others. You can see it all here.
So that sort of thing I think is best handled like full movie/show credits, and leave the top template as something closer to our box info on movies/episodes (director, writer, and on movies, composer and studio). So basically any laundry list or more complex stuff that can't be handled in galleries (i.e. alternate cover artists) can go there at the bottom like with any other project that has a long crew list. -- Andrew Emoji-droolAdminsig 23:04, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
The Solicit and Synopsis feel kind of redundant, is the former something that is specific like printed on the back or used in online descriptions? But otherwise, I'm on board for this. - Shane latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 23:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, solicit is what either appears in advertising (in older comics) promoting upcoming issues and other lines or what appears online or in catalogs sent to retailers. Basically it's promo text before it comes out, or equivalent of "publisher's description" for other products. -- Andrew Emoji-droolAdminsig 23:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Also, looking again, we'd probably need to take the "Story" header out of the template eventually, if not now. Once we get to the Fraggle Rock Archia stuff and other multi-story issues, where there'd be multiple sections using the comic credits template so a new title would have to appear above it anyway. So while it may be quite awhile before we reach those, not being able to adjust that manually would be a complication. -- Andrew Emoji-droolAdminsig 23:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

If the "Comiccredits" template is over complicating things, we can get rid of that one. I set that system up on Wonder Woman as a means to encourage participation in a wiki that isn't very active. We don't have that problem and I think we're pretty good at staying on top of in-article consistency. We can just use normal headers and use regular bullet points for the credits we want to use. —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 23:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that. - Maddox latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 23:44, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Okay, I made a few changes:
  • I nuked "Comiccredits" and laid that info out like we would on any other page; it will be up to us to keep consistent.
  • I took "solicit" out of the infobox to keep that space simpler. I kept the solict in the article space above the stories since a solicit is released for an issue and wouldn't be appropriate under the separate stories.
  • For this example, even though there's only one story in Labyrinth: Coronation #1, I added a second Story section just so we can see what the headers and subheaders will look like.
  • On that note, the headers and subheaders should be stylized consistently now.
Feedback welcome. —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
It's looking good! Much easier to figure out too, or tailor to specific circumstances. -- Andrew Emoji-droolAdminsig 20:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Labyrinth: Coronation expansion[]

Okay, with templates and layout in place, I got pages started for all 12 issues of Labyrinth: Coronation. I let Kristi know on Discord in case she's not getting notifications for the forum. Please continue to chime in with feedback as we fine tune this expansion! —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 00:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all! I've got a first attempt at the Synopsis for Issue 1 here , please feel to have a look and let me know if this level of detail is what we're looking for (More detail, less detail, or is it just right?). One thing I'm wondering is if we want the framing story to be separated from the main synopsis, or if how I have it on this page where it's included with the main story of the issue feels right. KOMakesThings (talk) 02:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
I did some formatting tweaks and so on, but I like it! I think it makes more sense this way, as far as frame story goes, than to have it disconnected. Like we don't summarize movies or episodes that include frame or bookending scenes by separating it, or divide flashbacks or dream sequences and so forth. Great work, Kristi. -- Andrew Emoji-droolAdminsig 03:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
I love it! —Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 12:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Awesome, thanks everyone! I'll chip away at getting all the issues set up with synopsis', if there's anything else anyone would like to see in the pages (Formatting or otherwise) feel free to let me know, and I can implement as I go. KOMakesThings (talk) 17:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)