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Do you think it's OK to add Donna Kimball to Mokey Fraggle's performer box since she's been performing her from the Ben Folds Five Do It Anyway music video in 2012 all the way to Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock? Zach (talk) 19:25, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- Please wait for an answer to your questions before you change a page, Zach (policy requires discussion and consensus for performer box changes, see the style guide). In this case, given the time span and prominence of the projects, I agree and I suspect others will, but the overlapping dates in the box are confusing to me. Probably similar to overlaps we have with other transitions, but if it's just Kathryn Mullen playing Mokey at a single live event, we probably want to make it clearer. -- Andrew 20:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- First of all I apologize for the premature edit. Second I can see where your confusion is coming from, especially since Kathy hasn't passed away but mysteriously stepped away with no explanation. However, the way I see it and the way I initially put it was they were both performing her at the same time which we could leave a note next to that section in the box. Zach (talk) 20:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- Looking at the page, 2013 is for a Dragon Con panel appearance, not anything actually screened. I'm not sure that really should be the end date for the box (for anyone, if they reunite with their character for a special reunion panel or similar event). Those are the limits that have to be defined. Notes can't fit in performer boxes. -- Andrew 20:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- I think the evidence is clear that Kimball is Mokey's new and consistent performer. If Back to the Rock season 2 comes out and it's someone else, I suppose we'll have egg on our face, but I don't think that's what's going to happen. Kimball gets my vote to go in the character box. —Scott (talk) 20:58, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- My only real question is that end date that Zach added for Kathryn Mullen, to go by that DragonCon Panel or last screen appearance or concert event or what. I feel like con panels aren't quite the same thing, especially as we can't easily judge how much of it involved Mokey and not just Kathryn Mullen reminiscing unless somebody's video of the full thing surfaces. (This will probably come up with other transition updates, as it's a lot easier to get someone otherwise unavailable/retired with the puppet for a meet and greet or a con than for a production). -- Andrew 21:07, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- That's a good point. Did Mokey even speak in the video? With Gobo Fraggle and John Tartaglia, there were those Hub bumpers, not a major production but still a clear speaking part and easier to mark as a beginning. Double checking, Donna Kimball puppeteered only on that video. She next played Mokey, speaking, at another event, 2016, Puppets for Puppetry, and not again until 2020. So if we weigh that as on par with a con panel, then we have 2013 as Mullen's end point and 2016 as Kimball's start. That might make the most sense, weighing speaking roles even if not in a wider public or recorded performance versus non-speaking puppeteering. -- Andrew 21:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
For the record, I had started a more general discussion, Forum:Fraggle recasts, last January before Back to the Rock started; so besides Mokey, we could also account for Wembley, Junior Gorg, etc. Per the previous discussion, waiting until the second season releases seems best for when to add Kimball to the box, and adding Jordan Lockhart to Wembley's if they all hold. Handling the Gorgs might be tricky. — Jon (talk) 21:20, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- I think all the new Fraggle performers should go in the template. We have the rule set up to discourage excitable editors from adding people in there with very little merit. At a certain point, keeping them out seems like we're hiding something. As for their start dates, I think we can go with whatever can be sourced regardless of whether it was televised or not. Why say Kimball only started as Mokey in 2020 when she'd been doing the character for eight years prior? —Scott (talk) 21:37, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- Per my message below Shane's, I'm moving in that direction as far as source but I still think first speaking role makes the most sense and harder to dispute. The main issue with the template updates is just how crowded the Gorgs will be, whether to just go with "various" and handle all of them in history. Ma and Junior already have three names, so there's two more to be added and differentiated. Aside from figuring out that technical point (might be easier than I think) and pinning down dates (I'm now thinking just go by first actual speaking part, whatever it was), I'm fine with updating. -- Andrew 22:08, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- So the conversation went in multiple directions, but what I'm getting at is that we should wait until season 2 of back to the rock to make the change for Mokey and others like Wembley (and potentially Boober if Dave Goelz is only doing the voice while Frank Meschkuleit is doing the puppetry). Is that right? Zach (talk) 02:00, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Frank Meschkuleit puppeteering Boober isn't something that goes in the box. It's still Dave's character even if he's just providing the voice in this case. Frank does qualify in the case of Large Marvin Fraggle because he's taken over the puppetry and voice. — Jon (talk) 02:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Zach, there's been no consensus yet (just specific opinions and votes) and most of what you've said doesn't match the discussion so far and is just your speculation. Please have patience, as you've been asked before, and wait until we reach a consensus. It will be stated clearly on this page, so you won't be in doubt, and don't make any changes prior. On Muppet Wiki, discussions can take time, and chiming in with speculation or to ask again because you want to change the page doesn't help speed it up. Scott asked you not to post speculation or fan theories on the forums here, and Jon spoke to you about the performer box policy here. We appreciate your enthusiasm, but you have to show a willingness to accept policies and how the Muppet Wiki community works, and the patience to wait on decisions. -- Andrew 03:01, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Picking up where we left off I agree with the take that we should wait for season 2 of back to the rock or any other big fraggle production before we can add Donna to Mokey's box (and potentially any other characters like Wembley and Junior Gorg who now have a new performer). Zach (talk) 21:17, 24 January 2023 (UCT)
- Thinking outside the box (no pun intended)... but what if instead of dates in the performer notes section of the character box for the likes of Monkey (or Wembley), we just said something like "Kathryn Mullen, original series // Donna Kimball, Back to the Rock" and then have a "casting history" section where we can give the nitty-gritty details of the first/last performances and the few appearances outside the main shows. -- BradFraggle (talk) 18:05, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- I politely disagree as that isn't the case with most other performers who performed a character for a period of time for a project but then passed it to someone else. For example, Eren Ozker performed Janice for the first season of The Muppet Show before it was passed on to Richard Hunt for the rest on the shows run and onward. For the sake of consistency with all the performer boxes, we should stick to the method of listing the years someone has played a character. Zach (talk) 22:51, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
I retract my previous statement and say that we will put that up as a possibility for Mokey and other character's boxes. Zach (talk) 20:36, February 1 2023 (UTC)