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Forums: Index > Article Content > Guidelines for dubs and co-productions

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One of my favorite areas on the wiki is the international pages, especially for dubs and their voice actors. But with new projects and languages having come out recently, and repeated questions or editing issues along the same lines, I thought I'd post some guidelines and reminders.

First, as with everything else on Muppet Wiki, Show Your Sources. This serves an additional purpose in this instance, since more than once useful non-English sites documenting dubs or info on co-production cast and puppeteers have gone offline (and often archive.org can retrieve the specific page if the URL is cited), or from my own experience, a site might still be online but not show up on a Google search (and I've lost bookmarks in crashes). Some web authors have moved info that was free to paid books, and so on. I know I've sometimes forgotten to include a website when making or adding to a dub page, and I've tried to go back and fill in as I find them. If a specific single information identification, use the standard citation format. If it's an entire cast list used throughout the page, usually an External Link section (or sources if it's print only or offline press material).

The primary reason though as always is to show where the information comes from, even if some translation or Babelfish help might be needed. With dubs, older ones especially, that can be a challenge because in many countries, the dub actors weren't credited so the info is available through a combination of other sources: commercial releases of show soundtrack recordings (a good source, with the proviso that sometimes they're not the same tracks as the show, so compare individually or see what the album text says), press articles in the other language, interviews with the performers, obituaries, official actors' websites and resumes, etc. Can vocal comparisons be made? Well, keep in mind that our guidelines for identifying voices apply to other languages as well (but some websites and databases will include side by side voice samples, as do agencies, so an educated decision can sometimes be made there, but it's not the first resort).

However, on screen credits are always useful. A handful of older Sesame Street co-productions included full or partial voice credits (at least by name), countries such as Poland routinely included spoken voice credits, and in the last two decades, DVDs and now streaming services often include other language versions *and* a text credit after the program. Those are good sources (and can usually just be cited in an edit summary rather than in text, depending on availability; if only available in a specific country, screengrabbing and posting is wise). If you want to create a page for a specific language dub or country's co-production that's missing, please feel free. You don't need to ask permission as long as you're following these guidelines and *using reliable sources*. If you only have a VHS cover or title card and release date info, that's still enough to start a page, but a title only (especially if not sourced) isn't enough.

Credits are the best sources. Many countries have dubbing databases, in some cases working with dubbing actors or studios. Those are often useful, but case by case basis may apply (or corrections needed later) as some are closer to IMDb (just user submitted with no real fact checking, curating, or editing). Fan forums are never sources unless, the same exception we apply if confirmed crew post to Muppet Central or other fan forums, it's a specific post provably coming from a performer or other relevant participant. "So and so told me" is not a source when it's indirect. However, personal cited e-mails and correspondence, for editors fluent in the relevant language or working in those countries, are acceptable. Sometimes Wikipedia pages in other languages can be a starting place, but the same issues with English Wikipedia apply, so the info should be cross-checked, or the contributor history consulted (again, sometimes dub actors will add their own info or it turns out someone just transcribed DVD credits, but other times it's anonymous guess work). Babelfish and Google translation should *not* be relied on for text languages which exclusively use their own symbols or letters, such as Hebrew, Japanese, Chinese, Russian, or Greek. (The results are often random, especially when it comes to people's names.)

A few more notes. We try to limit the use of things like question marks in pages. If there's a voice table where it's known how the character was renamed but not the voice, a question mark or "Unknown" might be appropriate, but not for instances where the character has a standard localized name (if that) and just the specific performer hasn't been confirmed or identified (that's best either noted in a sentence, or omitted entirely). "N/A" (typically meaning not applicable, rather than Not Available) should only be used if it's for a field not applicable at all (a translated location, a character who doesn't speak or only makes sound effects, etc.) A question mark or "probably" should never be alongside a voice actor's name (as that just proves that either you or the website the info is taken from is guessing). We've unfortunately had to block users who failed to cite sources or edit warred over them, just as happens in other areas.

One last note: release and air dates. We sometimes have a tricky time with those just for US releases. For international ones, sometimes relevant periodicals are online in one form or another (I used some when checking info on Spain's airings of Muppets Tonight). But again, just fan forums or other social media comments etc. aren't.

Even before COVID, we sometimes had a hard time tracking which co-productions had ended, so more than a few will say the show is ongoing just because it hasn't been updated. If you can confirm an ending year (sourced, or from final season credits), we'd appreciate update help. Use exact final episode air dates only when sourced. Whenever unsure, a year is best. If the exact year is unclear but the decade is known, "1980s dub" is fine, but that should never be used *in place* of precise available info (from home video copyright dates for example).

Thanks and please keep all of this in mind! (I'll probably work some of this into an actual guideline page eventually, but for now, it's something to refer to when these questions arise again). -- Andrew Emoji-drool.gifAdminsig.png 02:41, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

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