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I'm a little confused as to who does (or doesn't) go into category:Muppet TV Actors. Does it matter if they are or aren't a "celebrity," or if they're playing a part vs a cameo as themselves, or if they are a series regular or recurring role vs one-time part, or if a separate cast/guest category exists or not (i.e. is it just a "miscellaneous" category for people who don't fit anywhere else?)....
Below is a list of who's currently in there. It might just be that things need clean up.
I'm just not sure how/why Kat Purgal and Phil LaMarr qualify to be in there, but Ben Zelevansky and Cedric Yarbrough don't. -- BradFraggle (talk) 20:30, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
Muppet TV Actors[]
as of 5/15/23
The Muppets[]
Celebrities[]
- Utkarsh Ambudkar (recurring; 3 episodes)
- Jere Burns
- Rosalind Chao
- Meagen Fay
- Margo Harshman
- Phil LaMarr
- Riki Lindhome (recurring; 3 episodes)
- June Diane Raphael (recurring; 2 episodes)
- Saara Chaudry (series regular; 10 episodes)
- Colton Dunn
- Anders Holm (recurring; 7 episodes)
- Tahj Mowry (series regular; 10 episodes)
- Lilly Singh (series regular; 10 episodes)
Non-celebrities[]
- Ron James
- Linda Kash
- Erica Lancaster (recurring; 4 episodes)
- Jennifer Lee (recurring; 4 episodes)
- Andrew Wilson (recurring; 4 episodes)
- Chris Jai Alex
- Layla Alizada (recurring; 5 episodes)
- Kamilla Alnes
- Hilty Bowen
- Jonathan Dixon
- Jimm Giannini
- Joy Jacobson
- Keylor Leigh
- Stacey Moseley
- Mike Ostroski
- Kat Purgal
- Marco Rodriguez
- Lauran September
- Jim Turner
- Nilla Watkins
Other[]
Big Bag:
CityKids:
Mother Goose Stories:
Sesame English:
- Roger Bart
- Vivian Baybubay McLaughlin
- Wali Collins
- Jonathan Freeman
- Shauna Hicks
- Kelly Karbacz
- Karen Murphy
- Selena Nelson
- Tom Plotkin
Telling Stories:
Pilots:
- Marietta DePrima (Little Mermaid)
- Darryl Ferreira (Tinkerdee)
- Will Mackenzie (Cinderella)
- Clive Revill (Little Mermaid)
Appearances:
- Holly Bonelli (Disney Channel)
- Johnny Haymer (Dolly)
- Rex Robbins (Ed Sullivan)
- Hi, Brad, I tweaked the definition to explain it. It was a miscellaneous category indeed, that was the origin in the original discussion, and I also explained that in edit summaries. So basically, if someone is in both "Muppet TV Actors" and an existing cast/Blank Guest Stars category for the same appearance, they shouldn't. I did cleanup, and as often comes up in these discussions, exceptions are typically oversights. I'll repeat here both the category definition and my edit summary when cleaning up recently added pages that double dipped. (By now it's been long enough that a few could maybe be broken out, like Sesame English cast, but most would still be puny, and also there's overlaps that make it easier). The tweaked definition: "Human performers in Muppet television series, outside of cameos or those covered in various guest star categories. Includes actors in pilots or regular/recurring actors when the number is too small to justify a category, as well as non-celebrity actors in appearances and episodes."
- So that answers almost all of your "is it" questions. Double catting should be avoided as much as possible (and most of the time if they're already in both celebrities *and* a guest star category, nothing else is needed). Gerard Parkes had no other home and Category:Fraggle Rock Actors didn't exist until January 2022, but I still think in this case it *might* make sense for him and Lilli Cooper to be double catted just because otherwise the actors category is a hodgepodge of the pre-existing International Fraggle Rock Performers (which itself is actors and puppeteers because there's so few) and new cameos and such. So this actually makes them easier to find I think, but since the Fraggle Rock Actors category wasn't discussed at the time, it's worth getting consensus on that now. That's a bigger navigation question than it would be for anybody else you listed, and I can understand arguments either way.
- Jackson Barretta isn't double dipped in any categories, and not treated as a guest sta. It's between being a working actor and basically a production crew cameo, so either way I think he's fine where he is. Looking, almost all double dipping instances were added by other users and just not cleaned up, so that's how folks like Jonathan Dixon ended up there. I actually kind of think it makes more sense to treat the only three not "guest starring"/celebrity promotion list on-camera actors in Muppets TV Actors over Guest Stars, plus the regular recurring (I'd say take Anders Holm out of guest stars; his names not in the opening but gets a "With" after the guest in alphabetical order roster in his 7 out of 10 episodes and is basically a semi-regular). But that's nitpicky enough to be worth getting more input and getting everyone on the same page on. Decide only to count any "Guest Stars" who get billing as such in guest star categories when existing (Phil LaMarr was unbilled but basically a cameo, so just an oversight) and put co-starring in TV Actors, or include bit players on an actual series with a cast/guests cat in guest stars (not appearances, pilots, anything else that this was designed to cover).
- So I think there's really just three areas worth re-examination/clarification, with anything else just being uncleaned up: handling bit parts by non-celebs (so not cameos), how to handle the two Fraggle double cats and whether to break out "Category:Sesame English Actors" (Mother Goose Stories is the next largest, anything else right now is too small or would be a really awkward category title and just make people harder to locate). -- Andrew 00:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- I figured the inconsistencies were likely oversights, misunderstanding or the result of an evolving category that slipped through the cracks. I think my biggest confusion came from the number of "The Muppets (2015) Guests Stars" (whether celebrities or just actors) that were/are dual categorized as Guests and Actors. -- BradFraggle (talk) 01:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think of the 2015 ones, apart from recurring, Margo Harshman from the pilot and Jere Burns and Meagen Fay who were in both pilot and series were intentionally in both since the pilot was kind of its own thing in a lot of ways (and remade loosely as the first episode with some casting changes and script alterations or additions, which happens a lot in TV), and also got pages before the series guest star category did. The rest of the non-recurring bit players or those credited as "co-starring" (Rosalind Chao got guest starring and just basically needs cleanup I think), same deal as above, added later. So it basically just happened when I wasn't looking. So I'd welcome input from other editors on those. I still think it works for Muppets Mayhem since there's only three that fall under non-celebrity bit parts (fourth "co-starring" credit went to Jon Bailey, who was the Minecraft concert announcer and would only go in Category:Audio Voice Actors anyway). -- Andrew 02:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think the "as well as non-celebrity actors in appearances and episodes" part is the confusing bit, as that would include any actor that's not in the celebrity category that appeared on a TV show (such as Chris Jai Alex and Ben Zelevansky).
- Also if we're include Harshman there for being in the pilot, why not Joel Steingold too? And should the pilot-only actors not be in the show's "Guest Star" category? -- BradFraggle (talk) 04:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- No, at least that was the case when the pilot first had a page because as said, the pilot presentation was basically remade for the show and never broadcast on TV. So yes, that should include Zelevansky as I said above and right now already includes Chris Jai Alex (again because of User:LUNI TUNZ double tagging), you're the one who created Joel Steingold and put him in guest stars some months after Margo Harshman's page was created (if I'd seen it, I would have put him here myself), you added the double cat to Kat Purgal, you added Harshman to guest stars, etc., so a lot of your "why is this" is because of your edits which just hadn't been noticed. And I already said a lot of that was stuff we just overlooked. But again read my last message, please, that the double categorization just happened through drift, "so I'd welcome input from other editors," meaning outside the two of us. Otherwise, Brad, the "why not this if that/if X then Y" (you've been asked by multiple admins to avoid that multiple times over the years) just gets us in circles again especially as I'm mostly trying to answer you "not this or that" or "yes both" depending. You're re-asking stuff I already addressed, while ignoring the parts where I said the bit actors part might need new consensus. In fact it's in the last sentence of my first reply to you: "So I think there's really just three areas worth re-examination/clarification, with anything else just being uncleaned up: handling bit parts by non-celebs (so not cameos)..." -- Andrew 05:45, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- Things have evolved since we established the category in 2006; the Muppets didn't really have shows like "The Muppets (2015)" and "The Muppets Mayhem" with numerous non-celebrity actors playing bit parts back then. Re-examination and new clarification/consensus would be helpful. I incorrectly assumed there was a clear rule that was being applied here and I just wasn't getting what it was. Clearly this is a topic worth discussing as the Muppet's television landscape has shifted from shows with just 1-2 "very special guest stars" to shows with various bit players and character actors in all sorts of human roles.
- Aside from the few stray slipped-through-the-cracks oversights/mistakes or some unique gray-area exceptions, my main confusion is that the character actors from the 2015 ABC sitcom and the character actors from the new Mayhem series seem to be being handled differently. You mention that a lot of the inconsistencies were due to misunderstandings/miscategorizations that went unnoticed - I noticed the inconsistencies now so I just wanted to understand things so pages can be properly categorized moving forward. I was stuggling to understand what made "Actor X" who is included and "Actor Y" who was removed different -- I didn't know which one was the "error." Not trying to litigate specific cases/examples via "Whataboutism", just trying to point out that things are not currently fully consistent and it's confusing me.
- Clearly this could use input from others as to how to best handle organizing all the various TV actors. I'll leave the bigger decision for others to hash out and follow whatever rules or guidelines get sorted out. -- BradFraggle (talk) 15:43, 16 May 2023 (UTC)