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Hey, everyone! Some of you may have noticed a lot of work being done on Category:Sandbox in recent weeks or months. This is an ongoing project which the admins have discussed for some time, and will include new guidelines and time limits for inactivity to better ensure sandboxes don't stay for years (some have been there for nine years or more), aren't forgotten, or left unmaintained by those who started them. It will also increase the odds that your sandbox can become a real live Muppet Wiki article!
First, a general reminder to everyone while we're still forming those guidelines: when starting a new sandbox, never start more than one at once. Always include a note explaining what the sandbox is supposed to do. Often using this template, {{sandbox|reason this exists, notes on organization}} can help, but also just typing "Note:" can work. Some of the sandboxes lack these (over 100 as of this post, which is down from over 200), so adding one to your old sandboxes will help us a lot.
Now, ways every user can help out. It's true that sandboxes involve access to materials not readily available online to the public or admins or specific users' going through their own collections of documents, scans, or old e-mails. However, there's also stuff which can be more easily done: fixing dead URL links, citing sources, adding images from easily available sources, simple rewriting, and so on. We'll be putting requests for help on specific sandboxes here and noting what needs to be done so they can become articles. Thanks! -- Andrew 22:05, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Misplaced or destroyed puppets[]
Sandbox:Misplaced or destroyed puppets was started on May 25, 2022. It's a potentially good idea for Category:Behind the Scenes, to focus on notable occasions where the physical puppet was destroyed or went missing for a prolonged period (stuff like "so and so's eye falls off in a sketch" doesn't belong). But a lot of this is anecdotal, unsourced, or vague bullet points. Cited links on several of the character pages as is, not ported to this page yet, are long dead. So what needs to be done?
1. Try to find a source for anything which has a cite tag or needs one. It says Lips fell apart after "Kodachrome." Where'd that come from? Remember Muppet Wiki:Sources when citing and please use time stamps for any podcasts or video interviews.
2. Dead links. All of these need to be run through Archive.org's Wayback Machine to see if there's an archived version we can cite as a source. These are just the ones spotted so far, to be removed when fixed and the source cited on the sandbox as well.
3. Replace all "see blank" with details. Everything with "See MuppetFest" is from MuppetFest Memories: Day Two#Muppet Q&A, one paragraph summarizing a question about lost Muppets. There's also details about Muppet deterioration which would be useful, however! If you have a print book being cited, often a direct quote works better.
4. Any instances of character's deteriorating, being destroyed by mishap, and so on definitely can and should be added. If you're not sure on anything, ask in this thread! -- Andrew 22:05, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- I think the page is coming up pretty well now. But it needs a picture for the 'destroyed or damaged puppets' section. A good candidate would be a color photo from the late '50s or early '60 I found on Twitter not so long ago. It's Jim Henson in his home repairing Kermit, while Yorick lays on the floor completely shattered after, I'd imagine, one of his kids played with it. Unfortunately I don't remember who posted that picture, but it illustrates perfectly the first entry of the page's bottom section. Maybe someone here also saw that photo and can locate it. SamStation (talk) 08:42, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
- Regarding the recent additions, I think "puppet loses an eye" (or whatever) is notable when we have a crew account of what happened. Viewer observations of an eye coming loose on camera shouldn't count. Depending on the context (and established wiki rules that define it), those may be more appropriate for Category:Goofs. —Scott (talk) 10:41, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's a great distinction that I think works. I've been debating also whether to add "during production" or in an exhibition, to make it extra clear we're not talking about puppets that nobody bothered to maintain for decades. I'm honestly impressed and surprised by how relatively quickly this fleshed out. Good work, everyone! -- Andrew 22:29, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
- I've got a doubt I need to sort out regarding a potential new entry for the "damaged puppets" section I've just come up with. I recall reading or hearing somewhere that in The Frog Prince Sweetums could make his eyes glow in the dark thanks to a special mechanism, but it broke shortly after the special was taped and no one bothered to ever fix it. For the life of me I can't remember the source for this story. Can somewhere here confirm if that really happened and provide a source if that's the case? SamStation (talk) 00:34, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
We currently list that "throughout episode 315 of The Muppet Show, Gonzo's eyes appear to be damaged, partially exposing his eye mechanism." I tried to go get a screengrab of it to illustrate a "damaged puppet" for the page but I couldn't spot exactly when it occured in the episode. When does the mechanism show? Although this (along with Piggy's mouth tear in episode 101) might be more of a goof or just normal wear-and-tear as opposed to a full-on destroyed or damaged puppet (especially since there's no additional anecdote of a specific event or the aftermath, just viewer observation). -- BradFraggle (talk) 20:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! It's not as clear in the episode on the TV screen with all the movements going on and no real close-ups. Do we have any anecdotes about what caused it or when they fixed it? - BradFraggle (talk) 21:38, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Circling back here... there are currently three entires under "damaged puppets" that are simply viewer-observations of a worn out puppet with no additional sources, anecdote or information on what happened to the puppet (Piggy's mouth in E101, Gonzo's eyes in S3, and the Devil's mouth in E501). Are these (as the article's lead text says) simply "normal degradation"? Is there a line between a goof where a torn/broken puppet is shown onscreen and a worthwhile "destroyed or damaged" entry?
- Personally, I think the threashold should be more than just "I saw there was a flaw in a puppet onscreen"; we should be capturing events where a puppet got harmed, not just any puppet that has observable damange. Items should have a story of a specific event of when/how the puppet was damaged, or an anecdote about dealing with the damage. But I want to get some other's thoughts before removing any entries from the list. -- BradFraggle (talk) 20:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Personally, I've never been particularly fond of that aspect of the sandbox. As I said back in 2023, "so and so's eye falls off in a sketch" doesn't belong to me. Scott said it might "when we have a crew account of what happened. Viewer observations of an eye coming loose on camera shouldn't count." So definitely documentation from crew helps.
- However, *visual* evidence helps alot as well, so with Gonzo, it's not an "I saw" definitely since it's extremely discernible in the image (which you brought up and asked for back in 2023 in fact, so there *would* be illustration for that section). So I don't see removing that as particularly helpful even without an anecdote since it's clearly not something meant to be seen, *but* maybe reworking as a note or in the lead, since we don't know if it happened in that episode specifically or if an older puppet was grabbed by mistake, but it still looks too extreme in that image to just dismiss as "a goof." Honestly just making a better distinction between "destroyed" and "damaged" (rather than lumping in one heading) would probably help. Then trim anything we don't have visual evidence of or aren't sure if it's lighting or whatever. Just Gonzo is definitely not an "I saw." (I generally personally wouldn't count "parts of an older puppet of same character were used in refurbishing" either except we have a long anecdote re Oscar.) -- Andrew 03:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Also Brad, scroll to the top of this discussion and those first three comments (myself and Scott). "Normal degradation" was meant to make it clear it's not "talking about puppets that nobody bothered to maintain for decades." When stuff like degrading Dinosaurs heads and stuff was being added. Whatever was going on with Gonzo in that episode isn't that kind of "fell apart in storage" situation, and isn't a "puppeteer pressed too hard and a finger shows" either. -- Andrew 03:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that separating "damaged" from "destroyed" could help. Certainly listing every "toasted" puppet is unnecessary (expanding our explaination of foam degrading, "toasting" and the overall shelf-life of puppets with some quotes would be worthwhile).
- In quickly skimming our goofs lists, we've identitified more than a dozen instances of minor damage that has made it to screen (an exposed rip/tear, an eye/nose is loose or falls off, etc.), most of these wouldn't be worth re-listing here. Cataloging every aged, unfixed or otherwise not-ready-for-a-close-up puppet that made it to screen without adding additional context behind what happened isn't really worthwhile to the purpose of this article. I don't think the few that we currently have on the page are necessarily bad, I just want to make sure we have a good, solid idea of where the line is so we don't just start growing a list of every "ripped seam" or "loose pupil" (basicially is it a puppet quality issue or was there an incident/mishap? Is the puppet old or was the puppet damaged? Is there a story or observation that's interesting).
- A puppet catching fire or being ruined in a water tank (ie. destroyed) is different than Gonzo's eye mech breaking or Big Bird's arm falling off at a live event (ie. damaged)... and those are both different than they just didn't pin the nose of an AM on very well (ie. goof). -- BradFraggle (talk) 17:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Gonzo's eyes[]
Breaking this off to it's own discussion section... Our article currently states that "throughout the later episodes of season 3 of The Muppet Show (excluding episodes 318 and 324), The Muppets Go Hollywood, and when Kermit guest hosted The Tonight Show, Gonzo's eyes appear to be damaged, partially exposing his eye mechanism and producing a bulging effect whenever he talks."
So let's look at those "later episodes of season 3"... we have photographic evidence that they are indeed broken in episode 315 (which was produced in November 1978). They appear relatively fine in the episode produced the week prior to that (314 where he only had a minor background role), and they're fine in episodes 301-313 (which were all produced earlier in 1978, between February and May, prior to the summer production hiatus). We also note they're fine in 324 which numerically comes later but was produced earlier (in May 1978) with the first half of the season. So it seems like they broke in mid-November 1978 when they were doing that final batch of episodes.
However we say they're fine in 318 (which was produced in December 1978), so somewhere in the 3 weeks following 315 they were fixed? But then we note that they were broken again in April 1979 when they made The Muppets Go Hollywood and The Tonight Show with Kermit.
Now Gonzo doesn't appear in any new material for episodes 316 and 322; and only has a brief minor background role in 320 where you can't really see his eye mech. So what is the status of his eyes in 317, 319, 321 and 323 (the remaining four "later episodes of season 3" produced in December 1978 and January 1979)? I quickly skimmed them and his eyes don't look bad to me (Gonzo mainly appears in profile and doesn't do his eyelid raises much, so maybe Dave was trying to not show off the bad eyes).
Our description seems vauge and clunky right now. So when exactly were they broken? And when weren't they? -- BradFraggle (talk) 20:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Episodes 314 through 323 were all taped after The Muppet Movie, yet for some reason 318 has the earlier S3 Gonzo, but otherwise, these episodes use the new Muppet Movie puppets. And somehow Gonzo's eyes must have gone weird at some point between TMM and 314. (For 316, he appeared in the ATV version's Christmas ending, and a couple of photos for 322 show he was supposed to be in that episode. It's unknown if he appeared in promotional spots for this part of the season.)
- He isn't too wonky in 314, 316, 317, and 319, but his eyes get rather bulgy in 315, 320, 321 (particularly in the first backstage scene), 323, and The Tonight Show. It does surprise me that the crew decided to roll with it rather than fix him (or at least his eye focus) on the spot, possibly to make him seem kookier. ZeeAndTheVisions (talk) 21:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Celebrities on Sesame Street[]
Sandbox:Celebrities on Sesame Street was a result of merging several small sandboxes together. There's potential here in breaking down the use of celebrities on Sesame Street, but it's already verging on a duplication of items in both Category:Celebrities and Category:Muppet Show Guest Stars, mainly two sections.
- "Playing characters"
- Just a blank list including people who were only in specials or videos, but without that being clarified here (Wikipedia tends to copy us but lump all that). Some of the more story based specials (Cinderelmo, Don't Eat the Pictures) aren't here at all. Since specials were usually prime time and credited the guests on screen (the show did not, and only more recently has widely disseminated which celebrities are in which episodes), that could probably be summarized rather than trying to list every celebrity who is also in Category:Sesame Street Specials Actors or Category:Sesame Street Video Actors.
- At least make sure there's context surrounding those lists, but they run the risk of becoming something else we have to maintain if the goal is to list every celebrity who played a character in an episode, special, video, or insert (and was a celebrity at the time. So this needs text to define the section and probably be representative or else use it to actually show something. Is there a definable point where the show started casting celebrities for one-time roles in street plots rather than working NY actors, and then when that became the norm?
- "As their characters from other media"
- This mostly duplicates Fictional celebrities, except limited to Sesame Street related projects and it adds the two Upstairs Downstairs actors who cameoed in "Put Down the Duckie" in costume (but not addressed nor interacting with everyone, so kind of debatable/POV). This could be a good section but needs quotes or discussion of crossovers, not just repeating what's on another page.
- Park quotes (or article links which quote CTW/Sesame Workshop people on it) about the use of celebrities, increase or decrease as the show has changed and in social media era (like with the parodies of TV shows), etc. Googling and finding books on Archive.org or Open Library are good resources. Most of the Sesame focused titles or cast/crew memoirs in Category:Non-fiction Books mention celebrity use at least in passing. -- Andrew 03:09, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
Sandbox:Computer Literacy[]
Computer Literacy is a good raw idea started in 2021, and what's there seems to all be appropriate to the topic. But there's no text at all and no order. What does it need?
- Dates and chronological order. Just showing when these happened will give a timeline of computer awareness in the Muppet universe.
- A short description of what each actually involves or if there's a specific aspect of computer literacy being focused on. Early episodes were often just "What is a computer and what can it do/can I use it," later they got into stuff like e-mail and so on, I know some segments looked more at typing, and so on.
- Resources to do these, beyond just looking at what's on the linked articles: again, archive.org and OpenLibrary have some of the print titles. Scans of everything related to the game Welcome Aboard are on that page (not everything needs to be read, but it may give ideas). -- Andrew 01:42, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- Now parked at Talk:Computer Literacy for whenever someone wants to do something with the idea. -- Andrew 21:46, 25 October 2023 (UTC)