Forum:Transgender Names and Pronouns

Forums: Index > Article Content > Transgender Names and Pronouns

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It looks like the pages for Chaz Bono and Caitlyn Jenner have been locked for editing following some edit wars. My understanding is that the respectful thing to do is to apply retroactively the names and pronouns they use now. Thus:

• We should move the pages to Chaz and Caitlyn.
• For Bono, we should say that "he appeared on his parents' variety shows"
• For Jenner, we shouldn't say "when she was Bruce", but perhaps "when she was presenting as male"?

I'm not an expert, though, so I welcome other perspectives. Are any of our regular editors trans? --GrantHarding (talk) 14:39, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Not an expert either, and perhaps we can reword, but the pages are titled as such in the context of the Muppet-relevant appearances we cover, which both occurred before their gender changes. It wouldn't make sense to note the appearance elsewhere and keep linking to the page as [[Caitlyn Jenner|Bruce]]. There'd be no ambiguity if the appearance happened after. — Jon (talk) 15:01, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I know other wikis have struggled with this. In my view, deadnaming is different from someone simply having a pseudonym, maiden name, "credited as" name, or other alias that may be different today than when they worked with the Muppets. "Jane Smith" getting married and becoming "Jane Jones" is different from "Jane Smith" coming out and becoming "John Smith." And when it comes to pronouns, a person coming out as trans usually is not actually making a change in their gender (though they often change their presentation) they're just giving public affirmation of their gender identity. So while we may have written "she appeared on her parents' variety shows," that was based on assumptions based on how the individual was presenting at the time; when, in reality, he was appearing on show with his parents. I'm not an expert here either, but I'd rather err on the side of respect and sensitivity over rigidity and technicality. - BradFraggle (talk) 15:26, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I go with Brad's assessment. - Oscarfan (talk) 15:57, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Brad, if I'm understanding you correctly, your example is the wrong way around: Chaz is a trans man who appeared on his parents' shows while presenting as a little girl. --GrantHarding (talk) 16:29, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

The standing, unwritten policy on names for people has been the same stance we have taken with company names: our article title reflects what the company was known for at the time of their involvement with the Muppets, with the understanding that we're not in the business of tracking company buyouts, mergers, renaming, etc. However, as the conversation in our culture regarding trans people has shifted, it's clear that this isn't the right posture to take when it comes to persons. I'm in favor of moving the two articles in question following observations made here. —Scott (talk) 16:33, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

You're right, Grant. I had my example backwards. I fixed it. - BradFraggle (talk) 16:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I did a light rewrite on Bono to avoid the "her parents" phrasing. If we need to make distinctions in the articles, maybe "while called [dead name]" might work better than "when she was" (I'm not sure any of us in this conversation really know enough about "presenting," which online sources mostly speak of in terms of dress and manners rather than personal awareness, to use it accurately for that one moment when the person met a Muppet; that's something where I'd feel better if an actual trans person were to advise.) Bruce Jenner, there's that one specific reference to the Olympian by Big Bird noticing how Cody has grown, so maybe a categorized redirect if we think that matters enough (we've done it before). At some point, as trans and non-binary guests increase, we'll likely have to update the style guide for consistency. __ Andrew 16:51, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I just made the appropriate moves and changed the edit protection on the articles to autoconfirmed. If there's still some problematic language, feel free to update. —Scott (talk) 19:50, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, FYSA: w:c:starwars:Forum:CT:Amendment_to_naming_policy_for_real-world_transgender_individuals#Decision_From_Fandom —Scott (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)