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It looks like the pages for Chaz Bono and Caitlyn Jenner have been locked for editing following some edit wars. My understanding is that the respectful thing to do is to apply retroactively the names and pronouns they use now. Thus:
- We should move the pages to Chaz and Caitlyn.
- For Bono, we should say that "he appeared on his parents' variety shows"
- For Jenner, we shouldn't say "when she was Bruce", but perhaps "when she was presenting as male"?
- Not an expert either, and perhaps we can reword, but the pages are titled as such in the context of the Muppet-relevant appearances we cover, which both occurred before their gender changes. It wouldn't make sense to note the appearance elsewhere and keep linking to the page as [[Caitlyn Jenner|Bruce]]. There'd be no ambiguity if the appearance happened after. — Jon (talk) 15:01, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
- I know other wikis have struggled with this. In my view, deadnaming is different from someone simply having a pseudonym, maiden name, "credited as" name, or other alias that may be different today than when they worked with the Muppets. "Jane Smith" getting married and becoming "Jane Jones" is different from "Jane Smith" coming out and becoming "John Smith." And when it comes to pronouns, a person coming out as trans usually is not actually making a change in their gender (though they often change their presentation) they're just giving public affirmation of their gender identity. So while we may have written "she appeared on her parents' variety shows," that was based on assumptions based on how the individual was presenting at the time; when, in reality, he was appearing on show with his parents. I'm not an expert here either, but I'd rather err on the side of respect and sensitivity over rigidity and technicality. - BradFraggle (talk) 15:26, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
- The standing, unwritten policy on names for people has been the same stance we have taken with company names: our article title reflects what the company was known for at the time of their involvement with the Muppets, with the understanding that we're not in the business of tracking company buyouts, mergers, renaming, etc. However, as the conversation in our culture regarding trans people has shifted, it's clear that this isn't the right posture to take when it comes to persons. I'm in favor of moving the two articles in question following observations made here. —Scott (talk) 16:33, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
- I did a light rewrite on Bono to avoid the "her parents" phrasing. If we need to make distinctions in the articles, maybe "while called [dead name]" might work better than "when she was" (I'm not sure any of us in this conversation really know enough about "presenting," which online sources mostly speak of in terms of dress and manners rather than personal awareness, to use it accurately for that one moment when the person met a Muppet; that's something where I'd feel better if an actual trans person were to advise.) Bruce Jenner, there's that one specific reference to the Olympian by Big Bird noticing how Cody has grown, so maybe a categorized redirect if we think that matters enough (we've done it before). At some point, as trans and non-binary guests increase, we'll likely have to update the style guide for consistency. __ Andrew 16:51, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
Also, FYSA: w:c:starwars:Forum:CT:Amendment_to_naming_policy_for_real-world_transgender_individuals#Decision_From_Fandom —Scott (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
- Also, also, FYSA: "How Star Wars' Biggest Fan Wiki Found Itself in a Fight Over Trans Identity" on Gizmodo's io9. —Scott (talk) 12:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
- Also, also, also, FYSA: "Fandom Bans 2 Wookieepedia Admins for 'Bullying and Intimidation'" on Gizmodo's io9. —Scott (talk) 13:06, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
So, Demi Lovato came out as non-binary today, and now uses they/them pronouns. Since they didn’t change their name, I merely changed to pronouns on their page accordingly. Did I do something wrong? - BTLfan4 (talk) 15:41, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
- The only thing I'd suggest is mentioning the reason in the edit summary (since if anyone missed the announcement, it can look like just a grammar oddity). -- Andrew 18:23, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
- I just wanted to drop my two cents on this forum as it seems to be used as a general forum regarding gender on the wiki: as far as Fandom is concerned, our global policy is rather simple: utmost respect for the person. This translates in practice to updating all our articles to their correct pronouns as well as updating their gender and name. Fandom has taken a hard stance against deadnaming (i.e. the use of the birth or other former name of a transgender or non-binary person without the person's explicit consent -- which is different than just allowing it out of feeling powerless and thinking there's nothing they can do to change what's been written down anyway. While there are exceptions, such as in Bruce Jenner's case, these are the rare exceptions and not the norm). This means that having the deadname anywhere on the article is not allowed per global policy (living people section). This also includes making statements such as "(born as X)", which are no longer allowed. We are aware that this is how Wikipedia does it, but that practice is not allowed on Fandom per the "no deadnaming" policy.
- Lady, thanks for weighing in. As you can see from the months-old discussion, we figured this out. However, regarding your edit summary on the Chaz Bono article, the "born as" name was kept in accordance with the no dead-naming policy of using the subject's chosen name and pronouns within the body of the text and the article title, and only in reference to Bono's appearance that's being covered here for context. See also wikipedia:Chaz Bono, wikipedia:Elliot Page, wikipedia:Caitlyn Jenner, wikipedia:Wendy Carlos, wikipedia:The Wachowskis for reference. —Scott (talk) 11:09, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- I know this was an old discussion, but since it was recently revived with a similar notice, I figured it was the best place to elaborate more on the Fandom stance on the matter. I understand your reasoning for why you kept the "born as deadname" part (per my "We are aware that this is how Wikipedia does it"-note), but even notes like that are breaching the "no deadnaming" policy. The only instance where a deadname is allowed is as a redirect. The edit summary was only meant to let those not aware of it become aware, so it wasn't meant to admins (and many other users here). Lady Lostris / SOAP 11:56, 28 May 2021 (UTC)