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- Spinning off from Forum:Character galleries
The character galleries have been great, a fun group project and it's diminished clutter on the performer pages, which along with the visual aspect was one of the original goals. Unfortunately in several cases, a lot of the clutter has just been transferred, with items that don't really count as a "character" or are so poorly defined (especially groups with only No Image placeholders) as to make it near impossible to specify. This is an attempt to start figuring out guidelines and defining what qualifies as a character for gallery purposes (and what at best might be better just listed as a credit on the performer page), so we can place or link to at the top of the discussion as reminders and for new editors.
- First, before even getting into characters, a reminder of the discussion and general admin consensus that only *three* sandboxes be open at a time. Too many divides attention and they get bogged down, as happened again (although other projects and a wealth of new finds added to it). A new sandbox needs to be discussed on that thread first, rather than created as soon as one is moved to become an actual article.
- Now, defining characters. A). There's a lot of instances of crowds, words heard in the background, not sure which character says what if any, and so forth. We need to either discuss those or honestly most of the time just avoid them. Ad-lib shouts in the background for crowd scenes, by Muppets or by off-screen voices (as in the game show segments) don't really count as characters, and if we tried to track it down, almost everyone did some of that at some point. So that's one thing to avoid. This is usually termed "crowd walla" in the film and TV industry.
- B. Related, single utterance animal sounds like "moo," "baaa" barks, etc. Also vague yells, sighs, etc. Not an actual character, unless delivered *by* a character with a name and identity *and* there's no question, but as per Muppet Wiki:Identifying Voices, this gets really tricky.
- C. When we started this project, there was consensus not to include silent extras and background characters, even if production documents help pin them down, just as we don't include "Kermit's legs" and such. A lot of that kind of minutia, and also "chorus voices" type stuff, is best tracked on song and sketch pages when applicable.
- D. Tracking down voice-overs for animated segments or singing has also gotten pretty messy. A lot of that is probably more just better organizing, but at some point "various singing vocals for inserts" (when none of it is as a specified character) works better, or else a fuller list on the performer page and not the character page (which feels like the best option anyway.
- E. Performances filling in as a major character in not meant for air footage (bloopers and outtakes, behind the scenes, private appearances, etc.) don't count as officially playing that character, even if the footage surfaces later or even officially as an "extra" (or on a talk show website). For the more officially released ones, or where we can confirm the usual performer redubbed for final airing, that can be covered on performer page or more likely in the casting history on the character page.
- F. Possibly limiting the unnamed minor puppets or finding a better way to cover them? At the very least, additions need to be specific, and if an image can't be found, they need to be brought up for discussion first. These also often fit into A crowds. Here's an example, this image is on both Jim Henson and Richard Hunt under the vague "football player," originally just pasted over from Episode 513: Tony Randall because it's in the cast list (some of those for very minor bits aren't even correct and need double checking). Checking Episode 513 specifically, there's five Whatnot football players and only one has a real line ("Check! Hit it boys") by Jerry Nelson (and already with accurate image on his page). The rest, none of them do anything more than mutter or shout and then sing in chorus, which fits with points A and B and so I think should be excluded. There's some other "no image" instances on Jerry Nelson characters for vague things like "rabbit" in Muppet Classic Theater or one of the bookkeepers in The Muppet Christmas Carol. That last can likely be pinned down, but it's easy to miss when this cruft accumulates after a page has already been moved from sandbox, so most editors aren't aware fixes are needed.
Finally, overall note: if you can't really clarify what the character or appearance is or can't remember, *don't* add it (same as with anything else on Muppet Wiki; if not sure, ask in the forums first). As for character guidelines, there probably comes a point where every "performer holds up a puppet" starts to overwhelm actual character portrayals. It can be a fine line sometimes, thus the discussion, though I think points A to C we'd pretty much agreed on, just need to be placed so more can see them. Any additional suggested guidelines, as well as better ways to define the less firm points above, are welcomed! This has been a great project, but sometimes we've gotten ahead of ourselves and it will help future pages to clear some of these up before the sandboxes start. -- Andrew 
22:28, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with all this too. They should be a list of characters (not a list of 'every puppets so-and-so ever put their hand in'). "Constantine stand-in in Muppets Most Wanted blooper reel" (currently on Bill Barretta characters) isn't really one of Bill's characters. The undubbed Clash roles that slipped into Muppets Tonight aren't really Clash characters either, nor is Rizzo in one scene of Muppet Classic Theater a Dave Goelz character just because it went accidentally went undubbed. A section on Clash's page covering how he was the go-to stand in for many of Frank's characters (citing some examples) could be interesting but they're not really his characters. We generally don't track every stand-in or fill in (Gonzo in the Classical Chickens video isn't a Steve Whitmire character just because he puppeteered him). -- BradFraggle (talk) 21:59, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- While I agree that Bill made that guy his own unique individual, tracking every time a puppeteer played around with a puppet on set seems like a slippery slope. -- BradFraggle (talk) 17:14, 28 December 2022 (UTC)