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In our song template, we have an option to add the first or earliest known appearance of a song when it's a song that has been done more that once. I can't remember if we decided, as a community, how to handle it. When do we use it and when do we not?
I thought we were using it the same way we use the first and eka templates, but maybe I've been confused about that. Should we use them? Is it worth taking out of the template? —Scott 
(talk) 13:41, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- I thought it was there for insert pieces, like the way we track sketches with the EKA template. But to me, there's a difference between a song that really is intended to be used once vs. an insert song they intended to rerun. The grey area I guess is songs done a whole bunch of times like "Sing" or "I've Got Two," but something like "Tugboat Song" was intended just for the one episode and just happened to get reused in a few episodes later on. - Shane (talk) 16:31, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, so the "first" denotes the first appearance of that exact version of the song, not counting remakes. Making it inapproproate to use on "Little Things" (for example) because that film was never repeated and the later occurances of the song are different performances. I'm cool with that if everyone else is. —Scott (talk) 17:12, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, so the "first" denotes the first appearance of that exact version of the song, not counting remakes. Making it inapproproate to use on "Little Things" (for example) because that film was never repeated and the later occurances of the song are different performances. I'm cool with that if everyone else is. —Scott
- I can see why we wouldn't want to use it when the songbox is adjacent to the article text which often describes it's first performance, when we feel like we're restating information. Some song pages have Performances table sections, as opposed to just article text, and there's a greater case for including the "first" in those instances, because otherwise readers have to scroll to that section to learn when a song first appeared on the show. Not that we usually take mobile into account, but on mobile view, the songbox is positioned above the article copy. It's particularly important to note the first performances of songs like "ABC-DEF-GHI" at the top, and I contend that whenever it's not mentioned in the first paragraph, we use the "first" in the songbox. — Jon (talk) 13:39, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- I can see why we wouldn't want to use it when the songbox is adjacent to the article text which often describes it's first performance, when we feel like we're restating information. Some song pages have Performances table sections, as opposed to just article text, and there's a greater case for including the "first" in those instances, because otherwise readers have to scroll to that section to learn when a song first appeared on the show. Not that we usually take mobile into account, but on mobile view, the songbox is positioned above the article copy. It's particularly important to note the first performances of songs like "ABC-DEF-GHI" at the top, and I contend that whenever it's not mentioned in the first paragraph, we use the "first" in the songbox. — Jon
- To me, the main reason not to include it would be not merely because a song debuted in a street scene rather than a stand alone insert or whatever, but as noted by Shane, if the song was only written for a specific storyline/episode and never used again except when the same episodes were repeated. In the early seasons, a lot more material that basically would count as inserts happened on the street instead, especially in shows with no real story at all. So for myself, that would be the only stipulation, just like we don't include a source in the song box for "Couldn't We Ride" or anything else originating in a Muppet production, because it's redundant (and also fits what Jon said, it's generally stated in the first sentence or paragraph). "First" doesn't apply for only usage of a song (maybe debatable if a song is redone in a story years later, but I wouldn't have an issue with that). Even "Bein' Green," though used often outside the street, has a first because that was the very first usage (if it had been used earlier on Ed Sullivan or something, then that would complicate things, and for something like "Octopus' Garden" which was first done on Sullivan, it's a cover song and we don't First those anyway). -- Andrew
19:21, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- To me, the main reason not to include it would be not merely because a song debuted in a street scene rather than a stand alone insert or whatever, but as noted by Shane, if the song was only written for a specific storyline/episode and never used again except when the same episodes were repeated. In the early seasons, a lot more material that basically would count as inserts happened on the street instead, especially in shows with no real story at all. So for myself, that would be the only stipulation, just like we don't include a source in the song box for "Couldn't We Ride" or anything else originating in a Muppet production, because it's redundant (and also fits what Jon said, it's generally stated in the first sentence or paragraph). "First" doesn't apply for only usage of a song (maybe debatable if a song is redone in a story years later, but I wouldn't have an issue with that). Even "Bein' Green," though used often outside the street, has a first because that was the very first usage (if it had been used earlier on Ed Sullivan or something, then that would complicate things, and for something like "Octopus' Garden" which was first done on Sullivan, it's a cover song and we don't First those anyway). -- Andrew