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Muppet Show start date

What's the source on our date for the premiere of The Muppet Show? As discussed on the wiki in several places, the show aired differently in different markets. This article seems to think it started on Sept 13. Whatever it is, we're advertising a specific date on our front page. — Scott (talk) 16:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

This article, dated Sept 12, 2006, also states that The Muppet Show started "this week" 30 years ago. So, while the press isn't all into the anniversary the way they were at 25, a few news articles are popping up here and there citing a different start date than what we have. Possibly using the same source. — Scott (talk) 16:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's useful to come up with an official "premiere" date; there really isn't one. I changed the calendar so that it marks September as the premiere month, rather than a specific date. -- Danny (talk) 17:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with your point, and I'm also removing the date from this article. Dean made the contribution, so I'll leave a message for him if he cares to provide a source. — Scott (talk) 18:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Harriet

Can't Harriet be included under a Human Character Debuts heading or something? --Cantus Rock 16:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm iffy about that. A, she'd be the only character mentioned so far. B, that only would apply to Sesame Street. The point of character debuts is really to note when long-standing Muppet characters were first introduced to help trace their development. If we are gfoing to start tracking shifts in Sesame Street cast members, I'd feel more comfortable doing that under people, i.e. "Clarice Taylor begins making occasional Sesame Street appearances as David's grandmother Harriet." Mainly because, as spread out as Muppet Wiki has become, the central focus, when you get down to it, is still the actual puppet stuff and the people behind it. Mixing character debuts or creating a "Human Character Debut" (and if that, why not an Animated Character Debut for when Traction Jackson was added, and so on) detracts from that, to my mind. Placing it under people, in the same context as when puppeteers are born or writers join the company, just feels more appropriate. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 16:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Another objection, in this specific case, is uncertainty on years. The 1976 date seems to be based on her appearance in a 1976 study kit. I think that's just an estimate, unless someone like Guillermo has tapes to demonstrate when her first appearance was. That's sometimes a problem with the cast members who were on the show frequently but as day players or recurring, not daily presences, and not listed in the credits, so that's not a guideline. Andrew Leal (talk) 16:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Well then I think the word "roughly" should be inserted when this is the case, because listing a specific year makes one assume that whatever event happened specifically in that year.
I like the timeline as a resource, and the more info the better I say. But yeah when it can be misleading if there is a defined year but its actually an estimation, yaknow? (I guess in Harriet's case the picture caption speaks for her appearance rather than just for the picture then? ) --Cantus Rock 17:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I think human cast members should be included, but only when we know for sure when they were introduced. If we don't know yet, then we should leave it out, and then add it in when we have the correct info. -- Danny (talk) 17:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
So, you prefer the "Human Character Debuts" heading to putting it under People? While I still say the former set-up begs the question of why Alice Braithwaite Goodyshoes and the like don't get their own sections, I can see it working, I guess. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 17:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Or we could just change it to Character Debuts. -- Peter (talk) 18:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Which is what it was in the beginning, yeah. But I still feel that, even if we include Humans in that section, there needs to be a clear distinction between puppet creations and a human character, which however much we love them, is essentially an actor joining in a role; human characters don't undergo voice changes or refurbishment or re-designs over the years, outside of Gordon's variable beard and weight gain and so on. Dean's earlier additions just lumped them all together, so at first glance, you wouldn't know if Molly was a Muppet or not. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 18:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it matters. A character is a character to me. -- Danny (talk) 20:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
A bird may live a fish, but where would they build a home together? I guess it makes sense, then. I still feel, at least, that the list should be limited to major/recurring characters, and not cluttered up with the year more cows were added, or the "debut" of one-shots like Ms. Camp. Andrew Leal (talk) 22:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with that. I think characters listed on the timeline should be memorable or notable. -- Danny (talk) 23:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
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