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Name Change vs Redirect

Okay, I'd like to know if we should change the name of this article or make it a redirect. Sesame Street: A Celebration - 40 Years of Life on the Street refers to these segments as "Jazz Number Count". What do others think? --Minor muppetz 15:55, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

I think we should leave the article name the way it is, because that's what it's copyrighted as, and also because "Jazz Number Count" might get confused with Pinball Number Count. -- Ken (talk) 06:58, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
I'd vote no. We don't need to rename pages everytime we find that the 40 Years book or the website use a slightly different title, only in instances where the book is clearly the best source (over fan labels, faulty memories, decades old non-CTW news articles, etc.) In this case, the legal title is "Jazz #blank," which we explain clearly in the first sentence to explain why we use the plural. It's not impossible that CTW actually *did* use those terms, but nothing in the archive documents we've found to date actually does so nor does anything outside of the book. It's such a minor change that, at best, we can note it on the page, but I don't see how it's really more accurate, just longer, and thus would cause a lot of linking issues. If it were a significant name difference and we had strong evidence outside of a fairly throw-away reference, I'd feel differently, and it's in contrast to Pinball Number Count, where it actually *appears* on BMI as "Number Count" but also registered as "Pinball Number Count," which has been used consistently in all materials and in covers and so on. I wouldn't want to call the use of the term in the book a mistake, but without asking Louise Gikow, we have no way of knowing whether she was just using it as shorthand *and* since she was comparing it to the Pinball segments on the same page, which would be understandable. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 07:48, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
I would just like to point out that Sesame Workshop seems to use "Pinball Animation" almost as often as "Pinball Number Count" (and I already made that a redirect long ago). --Minor muppetz 15:59, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

First appearances?

I noticed the CTW Archives scanned documents list no first season appearances for Jazz #7, #9 and #10. I guess it's possible they were held back until Season 2, since we have three episodes they could have been in. What's going on? How come we have appearances listed here? --Hilleyb 01:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

That page only has the scanned "First Season Content" document, not all of the resources Danny has used. You'd have to ask him if he remembers specifically, but the archives are vast, and include other press releases, individual episode summaries, and so on. That's the main reason the blanket CTW Archives tag is used on those episode pages and as a note, since it involves a wide range of materials. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 03:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
It has been said that the archive's program guides only go from seasons 3 through 12, though somebody had access to a program guide for the first week (not sure if it was from the archives or a personal collection). This probably shouldn't count, but Hulu lists Jazz #7 as being from season 2, and at one point the "on air" section of had a "video queue" for season 2, which included Jazz #7 (of course, there was later a queue for season 4, which included the sketch with Ernie thinking Bert was captured by Martians, which was obviously from later due to the look of the puppets). --Minor muppetz 15:55, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Wiki page picture

This is just a crazy thought: for this page, how about including the picture found here to further strengthen the Muppety connection to Jazz Numbers? -Dave Splurge 01:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, good idea! β€”Scott (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Article name again

Given the recent discovery that these films are called "Jazz Numbers" on the boxes where they sit at the Sesame Archives, I'd be in favor of a title change. I proposed this name in our previous discussion below, but at the time I thought it was too vague. If anyone's worried about what links to here, I can use croebot to fix em. β€”Scott (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm up for that. "Jazz Numbers" is a way better name. -- Danny (talk) 14:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking the exact same thing, too, recently. --Minor muppetz 14:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I made the move. I'll use croebot to fix all the redirects tomorrow. β€”Scott (talk) 00:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

E-mail with Denny Zeitlin

User:Raposofan posted info quoting an e-mail conversation that she's had with composer Denny Zeitlin. I'm not sure how to properly cite that on a wiki, so I left her a message at User talk: Raposofan. Anybody else have a comment? -- Danny (talk) 01:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The only way I can think of is to publish the email with the name of the correspondants. If that's not possible, we should follow up somehow. β€”Scott (talk) 17:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah... "Raposofan" sent me a copy of the e-mail, but doesn't want us to use her name on the site. I'll talk to her about it some more. -- Danny (talk) 19:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
What about just citing it as "D. Zeitlin, Private Communication" and the date? That's how I was taught to handle such things in papers. -- Wendy (talk) 19:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
That's true, but in a paper, the implication is that it's a "private communication" with you, the author. On a wiki, there's no single author, and the actual person involved doesn't want to publish her name. My current feeling is that if we can't use her name, then we have to take it out. -- Danny (talk) 19:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I sorta realized that after I posted it; although in fact I've always assumed that it would be best to contact the communicator and not the author of the paper if I had further questions.
Does she object to using Raposofan as well? Assuming she drops by now and then, her username here would allow anybody who wanted to leave her a message and would be, in fact, somewhat more explicit within the wiki context than her real name, which, unless it is very unique, is likely to belong to a bunch of people. Papers have a contact address (at least an email address) for the primary author, not just the name, so there is a way to find the right "Fred James".
Aside from our policy to try to use people's names around here (which is certainly good for community purposes), I think that "Private Communication between D. Zeitlin and User:Raposofan, xx/07" works as a full reference within the context of the wiki itself. -- Wendy (talk) 20:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that could work. Plus, the email's been forwarded and viewed by someone here other than User:Raposofan, so that helps add some credibility. β€”Scott (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Heather said that it was okay to cite her as "Heather F.", which, combined with the user name, is good enough for me. Here's the e-mail that she forwarded to me. I removed a second paragraph which was about a video trade.

On 5/29/07, Dennis Zeitlin <> wrote:

Hi Heather-- I couldn't get the link you sent to work, but you're a good detective. In 1971, I believe, John Magnuson of Imagination, Inc. hired me to compose and perform that soundtrack, which is called " 1 to 10". I'm playing piano and clavinet on it, with Bobby Natanson on drums, and Mel Graves, bass. Some time after we recorded it, Grace Slick over-dubbed her parts.

Best wishes, and I'm glad you have enjoyed these videos over the years.

Denny Zeitlin

In the article, I took the "In 1971, I believe" phrase out of the quote, because we know that's a mistake -- the segment appeared in late 1969, so obviously it was recorded before '71. Since it's a simple misremembering of dates, I didn't think it was necessary to make a big deal about it in the article. -- Danny (talk) 12:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


What's the source for the name of this sketch? As I brought up at Talk:Jazz No. 10, the credits for A&E Biography: Sesame Street list it as Jazz #10. -- Scott (talk) 04:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I have seen that source used on many message boards and I think some websites, too. I don't know if that's the official title for the series, but that's how I've always known the title as. Similar to how The Typewriter might not be the official title for that series. --Minor muppetz 12:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
It was also labelled "Jazz #10" in the Sesame Street Unpaved special in 1999. Personally, I think that even if it isn't official and just a fan-made title, "Jazzy Spies" has a nicer ring to it. -- Dave Splurge 09:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Or maybe we could change the articles title to "Jazz (number sketches)". I guess the problem with many Sesame Street sketches (mainly non-Muppet)is that the titles don't always seem to have any official sources for titles, so a lot of recurring sketches have titles made up by fans. Are there any official sources for whetehr The Baker Films is an official title, and not a fan-made title? --Minor muppetz 03:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
So, the songs are legally called "Jazz #10" or whatever number was being presented. These two articles need to be merged, and I'm not prone to using a fan-made title. So, due to the ambiguity of the songs, should we call the article "Jazz Numbers" for a catch-all title which would include "Jazz #1", "Jazz #2", and so on? β€” Scott (talk) 21:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it should be listed as either "Jazz Numbers" or "Jazz (number skits)". It is funny how many fans have adopted the fan name "The Jazzy Spies" for this series of skits. It could have easily been called "Jazzy Race Cars". --Minor muppetz 19:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


What's the source for saying that the 2 segment has rarely been seen on the show? -- Danny (talk) 20:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You might ask the original contributor. -- Scott (talk) 04:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I read that info on a message board a long time ago (and I beleive I added that information before this page started discouraging people to include info found only on message boards, with no official sources to back it up). --Minor muppetz 12:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Speculation: it could be because it has toy guns in it. --Hrodulf 02:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC) 23:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Maybe, but that wasn't really an issue in the 70s. People didn't get nervous about toy guns until the 80s at the earliest... -- Danny (talk) 01:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I thought maybe it was at that point in time it started being shown less. --Hrodulf 02:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Jazzy Spies

Shouldn't this page be merged with the "Jazzy Spies" page? --MuppetVJ 22:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It most certainly should; see my response to Scarecroe below. --Ingeborg 00:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Is Jazzy Spies the official name of the sketch? The song title "Jazz #10" comes from the credits of the A&E Biography. -- Scott (talk) 18:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The Sesame Street Lyrics Archive has made "Jazzy Spies" an unofficial, popular name for the whole series of cartoons. However, the official title of each sketch is "Jazz #<number>". -- Ingeborg 00:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)