Talk: Law & Order

Consolidation

Ordinarily, at this point I'd move the conversation to the category concerned, but since that category is not long for this world, let's just continue it here, but above water. I've weeded out the Non-Muppet Productions shows which fit into or were already in other categories. I just merged any useful The Book of Pooh info into Winnie the Pooh as a connections list. The only thing that I didn't transfer was the title card image, which probably didn't belong here to begin with. Before fully nuking everything, though, it occurred to me. The existence of this as a category is problematic, but there's no real reason we can't have a big fun messy list. There's already Movies with Multiple Muppet Show Guest Stars, which is just cast connections and nothing else. So much of this could go into a Non-Henson Productions with Muppeteers or some such, and that's all pages like Return to Oz and Blue's Room are anyway. Thoughts? Andrew Leal (talk) 06:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, Blues Room is actually the longest article there, along with Los mundos de Yupi. While some of the award and plot stuff is utterly irrelevant, I looked around and saw that the puppet Blue appeared in We Are Family. Since characters from Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue have been allowed in, the cross-over makes Blue a celebrity, and a new page more clearly stressing both the appearance and the connections, in a list maybe, would probably work. Yupi is an interesting read, but most of the important and interesting details about cross-over actors and how it came to replace Barrio Sesamo could be merged into a nice history section on that show's page. Andrew Leal (talk) 06:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking that merging Yupi with Barrio Sesamo would be a good idea. I agree completely with everything you're saying -- a big messy list is good, and the We Are Family connection makes Blue a celebrity. Good calls all around. -- Danny (talk) 14:03, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, sounds good to me --- I understand the continuing need to keep the focus on stuff related to the muppets and not get too far off the track. George B. (talk) 03:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

One thing to consider with some of these non-Muppet puppetry productions is the propensity for future visitors to attempt to recreate the pages (due to a misconception that the shows are Muppet productions). I'm not suggesting we have pages that simply say "This show was not a Muppet production", but it may be a factor in favor of keeping the ones we have, particularly the ones with other Muppet connections we can talk about. I just wonder if someone might come along, search for (say) Allegra's Window, and, coming up with nothing, try to start a new article on it. LtPowers 13:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I think once the "Non-Muppet Productions" category is gone, that becomes less of a problem. If somebody creates an Allegra's Window page in the future, then they won't have a category to put it in. If they put it in Muppet TV Shows, then that'll be an obvious flag for somebody to come along and delete it. -- Danny (talk) 13:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Category?

This is a nice article, and the actor connections list is neat, but I'm not sure about it's categorization. The tag says "This article concerns a subject that is not a Muppet production, but shares many similarities from a production standpoint." Apart from sharing the same studio and a few performers, Sesame Street has no real similarities to Law and Order. At least with something like Eureeka's Castle there's a similar aesthetic and pedagogical approach. Earlier, someone created a page on the Walt Disney World character Figment and put him in celebrities, on the basis that Dave Goelz is the current voice. So I'm just a little concerned about pages that might encourage or give newer users the impression that any show or character can have a page, puppet or not, as long as a Muppet associated person had even a small involvement.

So, is there some other reference or connection to Law and Order so we can move this to references? Was Richard Belzer part of the franchise when he appeared on Elmopalooza? Andrew Leal (talk) 06:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

As Danny said "I think Non-Muppet Productions works, as long as the focus is on the connections between people who have worked on Muppet/Henson projects. I think it's helpful for a Muppet Wiki reader to click on It's a Big Big World, and then see all the M/H related people who have worked on that show." That's what I tried to do here - show the connection.

Something like Figment (which only includes a connection to one Muppet person) could easily be incorporated into Dave Goelz's page. But something that connects well over 11 Henson/Muppet people is somewhat notable. Sure Law & Order doesn't have puppets, but it has a stronger connection to Muppet/Henson people than Under the Umbrella Tree does.

I created this page after seeing that a lot of the pages for people had L&O listed. I thought it would be interesting to see how many M/H people on the wiki had the L&O connection. Originally I considered just making a list called "Sesame Street Cast Members who have appeared on Law & Order".

Do we only want to focus on Henson connections of other things with puppets? Is a "Martin P. Robinson, Pam Arciero and Tim Lagasse all puppeteering in" a stronger Sesame Street link than an "Alison Bartlett, Emilio Delgado and Roscoe Orman all acting in" link? I agree that every Frank Oz movie doesn't need a page here, nor every show Fran Brill has graced the screen of, but a film/show that features a whole bunch of Henson/Muppet alumni is something that is noteworthy to see the connections of.

FYI – Richard Belzer has been playing Det. John Munch since 1993. And currently holds the record for the longest-running character in an American primetime drama television. Thanks to many cross-overs and spin-off, Belzer has been able to canonically played the character on over 8 shows (another TV record) and even a film. Here's the list: "Homicide: Life on the Street" (1993-1998), "Law & Order" (1996-present), "The X Files" (1997), "Law & Order: SVU" (1999-present), "Homicide: The Movie" (2000)m "The Beat" (2000), "Law & Order: Criminal Intent" (2004-present), "Law & Order: Trail By Jury" (2005), "Arrested Development" (2006). -- Brad D. (talk) 07:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Thing is, if this is the approach we're going to take, a) where does it end (should I create a page for "The Jeffersons? I can connect at least six cast members off the top of my head), and b) regardless, the current text needs to be changed. If non=Muppet productions is now just for shows where sufficient performers/crew have Muppet connections, then the bit about sharing similarities from a production stand point needs to go. Andrew Leal (talk) 07:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is starting to make me rethink my earlier statement about Non-Muppet Productions. When I wrote that, I honestly hadn't looked too closely at what's in there. Under the Umbrella Tree and Groundling Marsh are kind of silly as Muppet Wiki pages -- Umbrella Tree especially, which includes one person who did a couple Fraggle Rock characters and another person who did background puppeteering on FTB. Who cares? It's not a Muppet show. Ditto for Groundling Marsh. Kind of ditto for all of it, actually.

Andrew, Scott and I have been having a lot of fun with the References and Muppet Mentions, and it's become kind of a game -- can you connect X to the Muppets, based on whether they can fit into one of those categories? I was excited when I thought of how to get P.G. Wodehouse on the wiki, and I was thrilled recently when Doctor Who mentioned The Muppet Movie in a recent episode -- now I get to add that to the wiki too. Once they're added, either in References or Muppet Mentions, then you get to do a "Connections" thing. Having this weird extra "Non-Muppet Productions" thing feels like cheating.

I would propose deleting the category. A lot of the good stuff there will stay anyway -- Between the Lions and The Electric Company are in Appearances, Avenue Q and Pigeon-Holed are in Muppet Mentions. I don't think it would hurt for us to lose Miss Peach of the Kelly School or the very sad Return to Oz page. -- Danny (talk) 04:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I would not object to deleting the category. It is a bit cheating to include in the Muppet wiki, and it is hard to know where to "draw the line" (such as Dave Goelz and Disney's Figment). If an important subject to a Henson person is mentioned on the Wiki (such as "Return to Oz" in Brian Henson's credits), just link to Wikipedia for it. I did however find a legit Muppety quote from "Law & Order" thus could move this page to "Muppet Mentions". (I know there have been many more made on the show, I just don't have the exacts on any of them now - but I'll see if I can't hunt some more down) -- Brad D. (talk) 05:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yay! I'm glad the page gets to stick around, because it *is* neat, but the category felt odd. Yeah, Miss Peach has been bugging me, since the performer connections are tenuous and it wasn't even a real series. The picture's kinda neat, but that's all. The only one I'd like to find a way to save that doesn't currently fit in another category is Little Shop of Horrors, because Muppet folks have been involved in all 3 major incarnations (off-Broadway, film, and Broadway), but the page itself isn't precisely awe inspiring. And it could always be rebuilt, faster, stronger, Muppetier if a reference to or in the production is found. Andrew Leal (talk) 05:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, could we tighten Muppet Mentions a little come to that? It works with Law and Order because of the connections, but then there's pages like My Date with the President's Daughter which is just sad. Maybe a consolidation of purely one-time, one line references is in order? It works on Law and Order, because of the actor and studio connections, and like Brad said, the potential for more. But there's no real way to build up a My Date etc. page and keep it Muppet relevant. There may be other examples, so they could all have a home together. Andrew Leal (talk) 05:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree some are really sad. Especially My Date with the President's Daughter -- which isn't even accurate (it was an ABC Wonderful World of Disney telefilm that was re-aired years later on Disney Channel – don't ask why I know that). It is poorly stated (could use a direct quote of the mention or at least a better description of what the heck is going on when it was made). Many of the "one-liners" are sad (especially without a direct quote and better description of what prompted the reference). -- Brad D. (talk) 06:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)