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Other insert

There was a live-action film at the zoo with a high school girl who volunteered with the chincillas.Dshibshm 01:04, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


I'm restoring this page on the basis that the information contained within is just as relevant as any other non-Muppet page on the wiki. We decided some time ago, that for all intents and purposes, Muppet Wiki is also essentially a Sesame Street wiki, a Dark Crystal wiki, etc. I think this was deleted by Andrew prematurely because it was met with skepticism and he felt that his afternoon's hard work had been for nothing. I'm prepared to argue for its staying here on the same grounds that we have the 41 articles in Category:Sesame Street Animated Segments. —Scott (talk) 22:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was having a bad day then. Looking back, there was no consensus, just me and you versus Danny and Guillermo. And I think Danny, who had previously explicitly given me to go ahead, agreed mainly because it wasn't much of an article just then, which is true. But there's not only plenty of segments to add, there's some good analysis of their role on the show which could be integrated, from Children and Television: Lessons from Sesame Street. Plus, since then, we've found even better examples, like the horns lecture which actually integrates Kermit the Frog with the animal film. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 23:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

no Muppets? = DELETE

I'm not sure this page belongs on the Wiki. The only connection to this page is Sesame Street, but other than that, it's hard to associate the Muppets with these films (aside from the occasional linking scene). What do the rest of you think? --MuppetVJ 23:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

An idea: Maybe this could be megred with the Joe Raposo page. --MuppetVJ 00:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
That's a good point. We've been avoiding having a lot of cartoon insert pages. -- Danny (talk) 00:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, a, it's in live animals, and it's all one page. We allow Category:Sesame Street Animated Segments as long as it's recurring, and it has as much to do with the Muppets as The Mad Painter, Jane Tuesday, and Larry and Phyllis, which otherwise have no direct Muppet connections either. Heck, Kermit never even talked about Larry and Phyllis, as far as I know, but as G notes, he and other sometimes commented on the animal films as linking material (and later, they grouped several under the heading "The Sesame Street Creature Feature" as its own entity). I honestly don't see the problem, unless we want to severely limit *all* non Muppet content and dump some of the aforementioned pages as well. Apart from anything else, it's a useful way to group things like "I'm an Aardvark," and if the song itself is deemed important and allowable, why not a list of all similar inserts? If it's deleted, then I'd like to make a subcategory to group those songs (and there's more yet to be added), but honestly, I think this is easier. If absolutely insisted upon, I can yank out the warthog running bits and the like, but I just think it adds to the page. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey, don't stress about it. It's a reasonable question, and we can have a reasonable discussion about it. Nobody's jumping to delete this; you spent time on it, and we're respectful of each other's work. I think it's a legitimate point of discussion. -- Danny (talk) 00:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not stressed, actually, and don't mean to give that impression (though admittedly, whenever the first comment on a page is "Do we need this," one tends to be defensive). But as I said, I don't see how this is any less "Muppet significant" than many of the other items in Category:Sesame Street Live-Action Sketches. Unless we want to reconsider as a whole dumping a lot of non-Muppet insert pages in general, which I can understand a little better than targeting the one page. Actually, a friend of mine seemed skeptical of even including Bob in a Muppet Wiki, but I doubt any of us want to go that far. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I think it's all relevant to the connectedness that such Muppet worlds create. True, this is Muppet Wiki, but if we were to really be strict about the limitations that the literal interpretations of that term would imply, then, like Andrew said, we may as well do away with the likes of Bob, and so many other categories that aren't specifically "Muppets." Sesame Street Animation has always been a crucial part of the show, just as the Muppets have been, and the human players. I think we drew the line correctly when we said that having pages for Under the Umbrella Tree didn't belong here because it's never had anything to do with Muppet productions. Sesame Animation and the Sesame Animal films are very much connected the worlds of the Muppets and extended families. We may be Muppet Wiki, but for all intents and purposes, we're also Sesame Street Wiki, Fraggle Rock Wiki, The Dark Crystal Wiki, etc, and hold just as much credence to all of those as we do the Muppet parts. — Scott (talk) 01:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The guidelines that we've come up with are sort of emergent, so we've never really codified them. Let me see if I have this straight. As far as I know, we consider Sesame inserts to be relevant enough to have their own page when they're songs, or when they involve recurring characters and are therefore part of a "series". So The Typewriter and Larry and Phyllis get in because they're recurring characters; "I'm an Aardvark" and "Dressed Up" get in because they're songs.
I don't see anything in the Animated Segments or the Live-Action Sketches that violate those two guidelines. The question is: Does this page fit in with those guidelines? If not, could the page be changed to fit the guidelines, or should we tweak the guidelines? -- Danny (talk) 01:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
PS, because Scott and I crossed and posted at the same time. Scott, I think the reason why we came up with those guidelines is so that we wouldn't have a page for every single cartoon. There are a couple Frackles who would love nothing more than to fill the wiki with pages for "the sketch about the Y that turns into a Yak and then eats some Yellow Yams". -- Danny (talk) 01:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, as far as items in violation, I'm not fully comfortable with Sam the Snake myself, and I figured treating this as a group would count it as a series. And I figured having it in one page, all clearly thematically linked, even in a somewhat broad way, seemed different from creating a bunch of pages called "THe Warthog Runs" and so on, which is what prompted that animation debate. But putting it this way, I understand the question a little better. So, should it be nuked then until enough details surface on precisely what inserts were aired under the "Sesame Street Creature Feature" heading? I still think it's worth grouping the songs. I created the page because of concerns on Category talk:Live Animals about listing "Dressed Up" and so on there (that may be partially why I'm coming across as just a trifle cranky, though I'm certainly trying my best not to,since there was, albeit just three of us, a consensus there before the page was created, and if I'd thought there'd be objections, I wouldn't have bothered at all). Still, I also feel the Wiki shouldn't necessarily be swamped with lists or categories if only one or two people actually want them, and I'm including myself there, since otherwise, we might as well have pages like "Frackles Who Wore Bowties." So hmmm. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that Sam the Snake violates the guidelines as written on the "Animated Segments" category page, and I think it should be deleted. As for this page, I think "Dressed Up", "Bein' a Pig" etc are more relevant for being Joe Raposo songs than for being animal films. Maybe you could put the animal films love into sprucing up the Raposo page. From what I can see, it needs a lot of work. -- Danny (talk) 01:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll look at Raposo yet, though his songs covered a wider range, which is why I narrowed it down. So, I guess consensus is delete. I'm okay with that, actually, but annoyed as heck with myself for spending time on this, which I did just to give those songs a home after that discussion. So bah humbag and cabbages. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It's tragic, but it happens to all of us. I've had my share of pages that were unappreciated in their own time. You just sigh and move on. Alas, Sesame Street Animal Films. You were just too beautiful to live. -- Danny (talk) 01:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, unappreciated and deleted aren't the same. I'm more annoyed because I actually only did it because Scott suggested in the talk page, you seemed agreeable, it made sense to me, so I thought it would be safe; I know it's nobody's fault, just kind of irritating when this happens *after* someone's essentially been given the "Sure, do it" go ahead. And yet [[Miss Piggy without gloves]], which has become my arch-nemesis, lives. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, waitaminute -- did we nominate to delete? There are other animal films that aren't just Joe Raposo. I can think of ones with monkeys and giraffes that I'd have to dig up. — Scott (talk) 02:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Which is to say that I would vote to not delete. Like I said above, we're just as much a Sesame Street Wiki as we are a Muppet Wiki. — Scott (talk) 02:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
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