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  • Hi, and welcome to Muppet Wiki. It looks like you’re having a bit of trouble formatting, so I suggest reading our Style Guide and using it as a reference. In particular, the Links section states that we only link to a page the first time it's mentioned, so there no need to relink characters several times in a filmography section. Please also take the time to reply so we know you’ve read and understand this message, as communication is an important aspect in working here. Thanks!

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    • Fair enough, I personally prefer to link each character, but if you already have a set rule in place, I don't want to step on your toes. That being said, I still think that in the filmography section, each character should be listed next to each production.

      It was those errors that got me to log in. For example, a few of the performers were only listed as performing Babies in Muppets Most Wanted, instead of listing out each of their individual characters.

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    • There are full credits on the actual Muppets Most Wanted page, though. The main concept is, for core characters who appeared in many movies and series, just listing the new characters introduced in a given special or movie. That's also why we try to make sure the meat of the article, the actual text, specifies when a performer first assumed a role and often include phrases like "from such and such date onward" or "in all subsequent appearances until blank." Since it's always easier to clarify something in an actual article than in a list.

      I can see how it can look incomplete, though, especially when what are basically background roles are added (mostly because someone found that bit of info and wanted to include it; right now, I'm not entirely sure if the above rule of thumb is being applied consistently on all performer pages either, not counting those who only played a given character on certain occasions or as a fill-in, in which case we specify for purposes of clarity). We also usually don't track cases when someone just puppeteered a part normally played by someone else (either dubbed by the main performer later, in a mob crowd scene or background, etc), or right-handing, etc. unless it was always consistent (or cases like The Muppet Christmas Carol and such, where the actual puppeteers are credited but outside voice actors dubbed a one-time character in post-production). But I'm not sure if we actually have that written down outside of old discussions which can't be easily located.

      I don't know if there's a simple, non-messy way to make it clearer that "Muppet Show Characters"/"Sesame Street Characters" covers any movies, specials, guest appearances, whatever within the time span specified for that puppeteers tenure (outside of a note on the FAQ and guidelines). We try to limit messy footnotes that aren't sourcing, but maybe we can discuss a simple way to clarify if it still feels warranted (I'd much prefer that personally than listing every single commercial, guest appearance, etc. for a performer who played the parts consistently for years, or when it's specified on the article page, and we have separate filmography pages now, like Kermit the Frog Filmography, just to cut down on that which tended to become unwieldy and overshadow other parts of the page). Feel free to start a discussion on the forums if you want to discuss an overhaul.

      The linking rule is what we call link sanity (to avoid the same name or title being linked over and over in the same section, just first instance, when one can easily look up).

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    • That makes a lot of sense guys, and I apologize for changing up the way you had things, I just wasn't aware that it was on purpose, and I understand where you're coming from with keeping those clean.

      I do have a few suggestions that I thought I'd run past you guys, since you seem to be veterans at editing this stuff. I'm noticing some inconsistencies between how the performer/character lists are done in the movies.

      For example, Muppets Most Wanted has it broken down into Steve Whitmire as Kermit, Rizzo, etc, etc. (which is the way that I personally prefer it) In contrast The Muppet Movie just lists the performers in one block and all of the characters in another block. I think it might be a good idea to pick which of these formats to go with and then adjust it so that they're all listed the same way

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    • Consistency is nice, and you've raised some good issues. I'd definitely encourage you to open it up on the forums to the whole community, since in this case, the inconsistency is mainly because of gradual changes to how we handle cast lists or expanded coverage, and differs a little across TV shows, specials, and movies.

      For example, The Muppet Show article itself only has puppeteer credits (for regular or recurring performers), since full breakdowns are available on the character pages and, more importantly, on the individual episode pages. For Sesame Street, which used block credits and with tons of episodes only documented through archive materials or TV listings, that doesn't work, so we have season by season breakdowns of the credited cast (and the text discussing new characters, or when a performer joined). So for most episodes, a full cast list wouldn't work (although attempts have been made mostly on season premieres, i.e. Episode 0001).

      For the movies, we got used to mostly not including full "So and so as" credits for the puppeteers, in part as a way to include all performers (including the "Additional Muppet Performer" type credits) together. We made exceptions for the two recent movies because of recasting and more curiosity. Looking at it, now, while we should definitely keep the character lists (they're good for shorthand checking of who appeared, and help to cover non-speaking or background characters, where we can't ID the performer, or if we did it would get way too unwieldy; that's partly why some of the "Baby" type credits ended up on performer pages, to try to keep the main page listing to the credits as listed, and some fixes may be needed there).

      This many years later, though, I personally don't see why both couldn't be included on pages like The Great Muppet Caper and The Muppets Take Manhattan (especially when we've sometimes been curious about, "Okay, was Gonzo billed as Gonzo the Great, The Great Gonzo, or just Gonzo in the credits for this movie?") A lot of it is just nobody noticing. Around December 2013, I noticed that The Dark Crystal page had no cast/voice credits at all (there, given the complications of puppeteers doubling, it seemed easier to just list the puppeteers, and ID the voices, with the specific breakdowns saved for the puppeteers' pages).

      Labyrinth still doesn't have an actual cast list either (just a text paragraph discussing some of the players). So again, more oversight, and another very complicated list, with the credits specifying the voices, principal puppeteers, assistant puppeteers, and so on, so I'd be tempted to just use a name list for puppeteers *and* possibly voices, although it's interesting perhaps to find a way to note which puppeteers managed to get opening credits billing.

      So it's basically a "not everyone's on the same page/some entries just got overlooked" sort of situation (not counting some of those where they simply don't circulate and we've had trouble obtaining accurate on-screen credits, which at this point mostly just applies to a few never repeated specials). If you're not comfortable starting the discussion, I'll see if I have time to open it up tomorrow or some time this week.

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