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  • Something I've noticed are the entries in :Category:Sam and Friends Episodes|Sam and Friends Episodes. The non-song segments are formatted in a way we've moved on from since 2006 and the ones that are songs are formatted in our typical song format.

    I think there needs to be some type of clean-up to these. Maybe give the song ones their own pages and just call them "I've Got You Under My Skin (episode)" or something akin to that. Or, we could scrap the pages and stick with the table on the Sam and Friends page as info on them is so sparse (maybe move it to a "List of Sam and Friends episodes" article).

    Thoughts?

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    • I don't think we should make a separate episodes list, but making the songs separate as episodes like you said are okay, as long as we keep the song article up for the songs' other uses in other shows like The Muppet Show or something like that. In the (song) articles for those, you can add "See Also" topic with the link to the article for the Sam and Friends episode.

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    • Scarecroe
      Scarecroe removed this reply because:
      .
      14:59, July 21, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Given the show's 5-minute runtime (which makes it more like a series of shorts or interstitials than legitimate episodic television), plus given the availability and limited amount of information available on many specific episodes, the articles in the "Sam and Friends Episodes" category aren't really episode guides in the same way the pages in "Muppet Show Episodes" or "Sesame Street Episodes" are. The category isn't filled with individual episode pages; it is really just a mix of "Sam and Friends Songs" and "Sam and Friend Sketches."

      Here's a breakdown of what we currently have in the category...

      Repeated Songs:


      Sam & Friends only songs:

      Repeated Sketches:


      Sam & Friends only sketches:

      We have the list/chart of episodes on the Sam and Friends page and it seems redundant to have the same information repeated on both the chart and again on an individual page just to populate a category. However, if the individual pages can provide more details than the chart can handle, then I think they are worth keeping.

      I think any song page is easily justified; so are the two repeated sketches... and we do have pages for other one-time, non-recurring sketches and comedy bits when they're notable and there's substantial things to say that don't fit in a chart (such as Cowboy Time, Aggression, Fears of Zero, The Psychiatrist's Office, Sherlock Holmes and the Case of the Disappearing Clues, The Wonderful World of T-Shirts, etc.). So perhaps some, if not all, of them are worth keeping too (I'll admit the format of some could use some clean-up and reworking).

      We could create a "Sam and Friends Songs" category and dump the "Episodes" category altogether (and the small handful of non-musical episodes could either just be covered in the table/list on the main "Sam and Friends" page, or we could house them in a "Sam and Friends Sketches" category).

      Or perhaps we just rename the category "Sam and Friends Songs & Sketches" to avoid misrepresenting the category as an episode guide and make it clear that it's just a collection of the various songs and sketches performed on the show.

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    • Well, the fact that certain episodes are potentially lost doesn't help.

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    • Scrapping the episode pages and sticking with the table on the main article makes the most sense to me. So few "episodes" survived, so we're never going to have a complete guide; also, I'm not sure they could really be called episodes, as they were more like sketches or segments.

      As per any other song covered by the Muppets, those should still get their own page.

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    • Yeah, I think the info on Huntley and Brinkley, Poison to Poison, Powder-Burn, The Westerners and Where Hunger Is From can all be captured on the table in the main article. And all the rest of the pages can just be moved into a "Sam and Friends Songs" category.

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    • I kind of like having pages for the non-song lip-sync skits ("Poison to Poison," "Where Hunger Is From"), which aren't that different from the Freberg pieces. I just added a few more details to the latter for context.

      Still I can understand wanting to merge, and video surfacing in several cases renders the pages a lot more moot ("The Westerners," while the same sort of thing, is just too skimpy; I'm still hoping someday to pinpoint exactly which of their radio shows it comes from, a date, and often the Sam and Friends' titles aren't exact; different spelling for "Poison to Poison," they added a "Where" for Nordine's hunger bit.)

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    • Yeah, I think that the pre-existing lip-sync tracks could have value; they're essentially like non-musical songs... maybe we re-frame them more as "audio references" or something like that rather than framing them as "episode pages."

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    • That's fair. We have pages for other stand-alone sketches.

      What do we think of changing the category? "Sam and Friends Episodes" imply 1) that we have an episode guide where really it's impossible to have one, and 2) that they were anything more than sketches that ran for a few minutes as filler between news shows.

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    • That sounds like the easiest solution for now (we can deal with anything else later, if we choose).

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    • I'm fine with that. Moving it to "Muppet Shorts" could work.

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    • "Sam and Friends segments" would work for the category name, unless you want to use "Sam and Friends Segments" for consistency with the wiki's grammatical apathy.

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    • Jbrangwynne53
      Jbrangwynne53 removed this reply because:
      Irrelevant
      16:34, January 9, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Oscarfan
      Oscarfan removed this reply because:
      Irrelevant
      03:30, January 10, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Just bumpin' this up so we can reach a consensus and apply it.

      I like Andrew's suggestion of scrapping the "one-shot" sketches that aren't songs or lip-sync tracks and modify the category accordingly.

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    • Agreed. Everything is at Sam_and_Friends#Known_Episodes right?

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    • Just to be clear, here's the breakdown...

      Keeping, because the article is used to document other references of the topic on the wiki:

      Deleting, because it's only on the wiki to document a Sam and Friends "episode"; migrating information to main article:

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    • Well, if we're going back to deleting again now that we'd changed categorization (we're not calling them episodes anymore so I thought it was fine), I'd disagree on most of those listed. I think it's useful to have pages for songs ("C'est Si Bon") or other lip-synch tracks (as Ken and Shane also noted in earlier comments) where we know what the audio source was and can include details (which can feel awkardly squeezed in on the mane page). Ken finally even discovered the source for "The Westerners."

      The two of that list that could probably go are Huntley and Brinkley (or maybe turned into an actual page about Chet Huntley and David Brinkley) and "Powder-Burn" (nearly all of it is already covered on Gunsmoke, which has the Punsmoke closing title and such, minus comments like "a precursor to the Sesame Street Western sketches," the sort of early Wiki statement that now just sounds odd).

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    • Okay, that's fine. I just wanted to be sure.

      I unlinked all the "titles" on the Sam and Friends table because it implies we have pages for each of the "episodes" (when we don't). For those references that aren't songs, I'll find a way to link to the 6 audio sketch pages.

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    • Some of those sketch titles didn't match the actual title of the recording anyway. I've debated whether or not to rename, for example, "Where Hunger Is From," which is how the Henson archives had the sketch listed, when the actual track is "Hunger Is From." Like we've done with song titles when Henson or others used their own name beyond the legal title ("Poison to Poison" was just a spelling change from Jones' "Poisen to Poisen," but on-screen it uses "Poison to Poison," so that could go either way I suppose).

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    • Okay, I moved Huntley and Brinkley to The Huntley-Brinkley Report, Powder-Burn (I'm assuming we got this name from The Works) to the on-screen title Punsmoke, and Where Hunger Is From to Hunger is From. Each page is drawn up to more closely reflect the way we've done most other references. Although, I'm not sure Punsmoke shouldn't just go to Gunsmoke, under that reasoning.

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    • I moved Punsmoke again because you were going by the end gag title. It actually uses both (Harry the Hipster announces "Powder-Burn" and I uploaded the title, right at the start).

      But that actually seems like another good argument for just merging (Gunsmoke already notes things such as the use of Rex Koury's music from the radio show, the ending mirroring the TV end credits, etc.) If they couldn't decide what to call it, just sticking with the source of the parody seems the most sensible.

      I also fixed "C'est Si Bon" ala what you did on "Hunger Is From." Apart from categorization, many of those pages I'm noticing just don't reflect how we actually write and organize Wiki pages now (several were just word for word info transfers Danny's write-ups from Toughpigs, which is why the character lists were at the front, with some additions merged in).

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    • Nevermind, re: Powder-Burn. I'm an idiot. I skipped to the end of the clip and didn't even see the screenshot.

      That said, I don't think it needs a page as we're covering it on the table and noting the reference on Gunsmoke.

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    • We replied at the same time, and I think we agree. I'll go ahead and merge :)

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    • I'm still working on "The Westerners," by the way. Ken found an album source and I think I've tracked down at least a year range for the original radio version (and source of the title). But it's forthcoming!

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    • Terrific! I never would have found that. Great work, guys :)

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    • A FANDOM user
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