The Minor TV Mentions page has something like 219 sections, currently. Would it be possible to maybe split off a few as Minor Reality TV Mentions, Minor Canadian TV Mentions, Minor Animated TV Mentions?
That's a good idea. I tried to trim that down a while ago by justifying a means for more of them to have their own pages, but it didn't do enough and it's grown more since then. I also thought of doing Minor TV Mentions A-D, Minor TV Mentions D-H, etc, but I think your proposal makes more sense.
You mean, what qualifies a show for its own page? It has to have at least three verbal mentions and/or a visual mention with another verbal mention... or couple either of those with a significant connections list.
I'm in favor of more break outs. Reality TV, or "Non-Scripted TV" (officially), might work (I've suggested something on those lines before, have to find the old discussions to see what terms were used), but I don't see any reason to have "Canadian TV Mentions" (especially with co-productions and such, it becomes kind of a pointless distinction).
We already have Documentary Mentions, to cover both TV and movies and video etc. (so anything on Minor Mentions that fits that should be moved; I just spotted "The Mekong River with Sue Perkin" and there may be others added since that discussion).
I was thinking rather non-scripted to include "reality" TV, talk shows, stand-up comedians who mention Henson in their televised specials, people randomly talking in a group who mention the Muppets kind of shows, etc. Possibly game shows unless there's enough to justify their own page.
Also, it may be too late, since it's not a show that reruns, but the Antique Roadshow section suffers from lack of visuals. It was a visual reference, someone in an Oscar tie, but nobody screen grabbed it (or if there have been any other Muppet connections via appraisals or whatever).
Scarecroe wrote: You mean, what qualifies a show for its own page? It has to have at least three verbal mentions and/or a visual mention with another verbal mention... or couple either of those with a significant connections list.
All this time I thought it just had to have more than one of any qualifications. Didn't know it had to be at least three.
Looking at the page, when we're through, with clean-up, or during the proess, it's become complicated enough (and also attracts casual editors) that a "What belongs where" mentions page would be useful (both for how things are split up, what goes on solo pages, and a frequent issue we have, don't add things which might be references without discussion based on a character being a puppet or having a name like a one-shot character which was already punning a real person, etc.) I'll put that on my to do list.
Looking at one-time stand-up comedy specials, and I'm pretty sure we've already done this with other people, it makes sense to move them to the comedian's page if they have one: we have some on here for John Oliver and Ron James, and unlike scripted sitcoms, they're the ones who just drop Kermit or whoever's name. So it makes sense, plus more people will see them that way. I'll go ahead and handle those.
Another image needed note for the future. Still Standing is pretty weak. "Judy Miller, one of the show's lead characters, is sometimes seen wearing Sesame Street T-shirts." With visuals, it might even work on its own page, but without it, or specific episodes or which characters were on the shirts, it lacks confirmation.
If there's more of these, we may want to park them somewhere for verification or until someone who watches the show/has the DVDs can be specific (which we've also done before).
I don't see a lot of similarity. If it's exclusively about handling mentions (on minor pages, solo pages, or elsewhere), I feel like that should be either its own section or something else. And if we break out into comedy, animation, etc., that could add to the confusion for newer or casual editors. See also help, of course. Basically I'm thinking of the kind of more specific "How this page/category works" stuff we used to put on talk pages. It's not really anything to do with how much coverage we give to Henson/Muppet production.
When time allows, I'll try to start something in sandbox so you can see what I mean. But to some extent it will also depend on how many subpages we end up with (given we're already 19 or more entries less than when Nick brought it up, I'd sort of like to keep whittling this way, or start with the non-scripted stuff which have a tendency to be the most "someone just mentions Elmo" sort of entries).
What do you think of pages for shows that only made a single reference, but it's a significant one? As in, more than just a throwaway gag, but part of the plot.
For Garfunkel and Oates, they wrote an entire song about a pair of Bert and Ernie analogues, and named it after a Muppet song.
There's also Ally McBeal, which we don't cover anywhere here yet other than on the page for the song they covered. It's used twice in the episode — which I've recently seen and edited together the two relevant bits (now if I can just host it somewhere without it getting taken down) — and it has an important impact on the plot.
These would have to be a case-by-case basis, of course. If there's a question about whether or not we think something is right for its own page, we can always open it up for discussion.
The single one-line verbal mentions are the main reason the laundry list page started. So long as those aren't getting solo pages, the rest makes sense. A couple of those "single mentions" took two paragraphs to explain, so in plot sense, that makes sense. If it is important to the plot, but the user who added it could only say so in six words (and nobody else could expand it yet), it will stay either in the master list or whichever sublists are created (depending on what's left, we might be able to do with fewer of those, although generally, sitcoms and animated shows are the most likely to include them).
Okay, sounds good to me. I'll keep weeding and when we're done, we can look at the page again and decide if it's still necessary to split them up as proposed in the first post in this thread. Unless you wanna do that anyway or had other thoughts about it.
The only one I'm still kind of thinking of it for is the non-scripted ones, especially since the majority can't support their own pages (King of the Nerds, with a great visual and two verbals and connections, could, but most are "somebody said Big Bird" and not much else).
And while we're hashing this out, here's some of the "What goes where" thoughts I had, in addition to our revised guideline.
Right now, in addition to Minor TV Mentions, we have:
Minor Movie Mentions. We did a similar pruning/breakout there not long back, so anything labeled as a TV movie should go there (it already had a couple of those Hallmark Christmas movie-type things). The ones I haven't moved are animated things, which are either specials or spin-offs of a larger franchise we have here. Firebreather (a frog is called Kermit) could be moved, but might wait to see if we create that animated sublist.
Minor Commercials Mentions. I did some cleanup there myself. Reminder: If a mention is made *only* in a trailer for a movie, it's a commercial mention. If it happens in a trailer and the actual movie, it can go on Movie Mentions.
Documentary Mentions. That one's newer (and labeled so as to include TV, movies, straight to DVD, long or short, etc.) Should be straight forward. One I haven't yet moved is the Penn & Teller series, which is called a documentary, but since it's of the "they go and talk and argue and quip" kind (and the one mention is from Penn's voice-over), I think it would go with the non-scripted stuff if anywhere.
And of course, the obvious general rule which applies to any mention: when it's a visual and you can screen grab (or note episode specifics so someone else can), it will help us out a lot later.
Nice. All sounds good to me. I think this is a healthy approach to pruning some old rules that will help this page, encourage more inter-wiki navigating, and help boost our article count while we're at it ;)
The references part is worded wrong, isn't it? Instead of "Anything that references the Muppets, Sesame Street, and Henson..." Shouldn't it be "Anything the Muppets, Sesame Street, and Henson reference..."?
I also adjusted the verbal part to say "described in more than a single sentence" (which if it's plot integral, should be possible anyway). If not, or for some of the entries, it's the "I read something about this somewhere online but haven't seen it" thing, they should stay in the list page until someone can expand (which we've done before).
Trying to figure out Flight of the Conchords. From the description, it seems to be another visual one lacking an image (I'll park a list of those later): "In the episode "Bowie", Bret has visions in which he receives advice from various incarnations of David Bowie. The third and final Bowie is Jareth from Labyrinth."
Looking further, apparently Jemaine Clement played Bowie, including Jareth, for the episode. So a screengrab would be useful.
Also, we have Hiram and Burt, which says they're caricatures of Clement and McKenzie. Whether specifically of them on the show, or just in their performances which led to the show of the same name (it's not clear to me just from our image and description), it would qualify for a page. So if anyone is a fan and can figure out how to write that up, feel free.
What the heck, here's some of the visual mentions that lack images (in addition to Antique Roadhow and Still Standing, mentioned above):
Black Dynamite: Muppet/puppet parody episode, mentions a recurring Kermit the frog spoof, but a visual (to see how close or far they got) would help.
Braingames (80s HBO kids series, used a lot of Sesame animators): Found at least one of these on YouTube so might be able to get to it later.
Comedy Central's Last Laugh 2005: I'm not even sure this is the right title (IMDb has it as "Last Laugh '05," not sure if the Comedy Central part was included). From the description, seems to be visual. No idea if this is on DVD or otherwise available.
Diff'rent Strokes: Merchandise on set or in background
Dragon's Den: has an Oscar shirt, came up years ago, no idea if an image could be found.
The Great Christmas Light Fight: competition show from December 2017, so may be findable (not clear if the Sesame decorations mentioned were part of a contestant's entry or just there somewhere)
The Illegal Eater: unauthorized Elmo cake
Pawn Stars: A Wilkins puppet shows up! Definitely worth documenting.
Secret Mountain Fort Awesome: Maybe, or just thematic Labyrinth' spoof. I never like it when an entry says "According to Wikipedia" because the editor hadn't actually seen it, so if anyone likes the show (evidently still on Netflix), go to it.
Supernanny (episode date is included, which helps)
This Hour Has 22 Minutes- The visual one is from a "Raj binder segment," no date, just has to do with Oscars. Might not be findable.
Agreed on a Flight of the Concords page. It's a visual and has a healthy connections list.
I'll go through Andrew's list and see if I can get images for some of them.
There are still a couple on the Minor page I'm not sure about branching out. I know we said one visual was good enough, but I went looking for a better screenshot of the Dr Katz mention, and it's really pathetic, only on screen for less than two seconds. Do you think we should amend the new coverage guidelines or just say the heck with it and make a page?
Seeing Black Dynamite reminds me of a different Adult Swim show, Fat Guy Stuck in Internet, which I believe parodied Labyrinth in an episode. I've never seen Labyrinth, so I'm not sure how far the parody goes other than the Maze Master character being an obvious parody of Jareth.
I think it helps if you can say something interesting about the one visual. Twice Upon a Time is one visual, but Miss Piggy popping up in a live clip (with brief vocals and audience laugh track even) in an animated film (and used for a character intro in the cast parade) is kind of neat in a way that some of the "stick something Muppety in the background" stuff might not be (or might just be waiting for the right editor to make it sound interesting).
Also, we might apply the rule mentioned re plot-centered references, as long as it can be described in more than two sentences (the reference itself, not just describing the source show). Right now, Dr. Katz doesn't fit that rule, but it might later.
Also, weirdest reason to break out Shining Time Station: it was referenced on Aliens in the Family. Really.
Okay, I added "significant" to the single visual rule on our coverage guidelines which should rule out Dr Katz which I really don't think deserves a page for just the 1.5 second flash of Ernie and Bert on a tiny TV. If someone finds another mention on the show, that could be enough to push it over the edge and get it off the Minor page into its own article.
re: Aliens in the Family, has all of that show made it out into the ether, or are there still some that have not turned up?
And depends on the ether. Nothing on YouTube, but all the episodes (in variable quality) circulate among traders or torrents (some incorrectly labeled, with the result that now IMDb has credits for the wrong episode titles).
I split a bunch of entries off into new pages today, and I just wanted to note here a couple I plan on doing soon.
According to our entry for Mary Shelley's Frankenhole (I haven't looked at the history yet to see who added it), the Count von Count parody Count Alongwithme became a regular character in season two. It looks like Dailymotion has complete episodes where I skimmed one and found him, but I can't confirm the name yet (the Adult Swim wiki and IMDb list him as Count Dracula... unless that's a different character) or if there were other direct references beyond the obvious.
I'll go through some more later unless someone already has a better familiarity with the show and can expand that. If he's really a recurring character throughout the season, I think that warrants it a page.
Also, it sounds like a character on My So Called Life sings the Sesame Street theme, so I'm sure I can find that somewhere.
Count Dracula is a different character. It seems like the others don't have speaking parts (looking around, apparently the faux-Count von Count hangs out with parodies of Count Chocula and Blacula, mostly in the background or in cutaway gags) or if they do the actors weren't credited.
Some confirming: apart from some name guest voices, no role identifications in credits, thus why IMDb and Wiki are incomple
te. Count Alongwithme (or Along with Me, since there's no way to source spacing) does speak sometimes and first appears in the season 2 episode "H. G. Wells' Scary Monster Contest." Not sure when his name is first mentioned, but he identifies himself in the fourth episode, here. And spends a lot of time counting things out loud at the movies. (Their group also includes Nosferatu, who speaks in silent title cards.)
He does, Episode 1 of season two he asks for ranch for his chicken wings, and quickly changes to blood when the other two shoot him dirty looks - he even has a little rod on his arm, which is obviously anachronistic, and episode 4 of season two even makes him and the other vampires a focus (and omits the rod), the show's credits however don't list roles, just actors, so whoever did the imdb probably just didn't bother guessing.
A few entries have been added during our clean-up, and at least a couple seem iffy. A user added this for Speechless: "In the Season 2 episode "The H-u-s-Hustle", Dylan eats cookie and says it's like Cookie Monster."
That's not coherent or usable as is. If anyone's a fan of the show, feel free to check the episode or rewrite. But since the user has added a perceived reference that wasn't, I'm probably going to just remove it later.
I found another verbal mention in Frankenhole's sixth episode from season one. Ike Turner, Chuck Berry, Kobe Bryant, Bill Cosby, and O.J. Simpson sing a song to Thomas Jefferson about how to get female attention called "Never Let a Lady know You Care" (named so in the credits) and one line from O.J. goes "Hold the Ernie, give them Bert."
Also, I realize you were looking for confirmation of the character Countalongwithme's name, he's named in the fourth episode of season two I mentioned above.
A few entries have been added during our clean-up, and at least a couple seem iffy. A user added this for Speechless: "In the Season 2 episode "The H-u-s-Hustle", Dylan eats cookie and says it's like Cookie Monster."
I checked the episode and have adjusted the description accordingly.
Still Standing is in the "in addition to" bit in that post. If anyone can find Talk Soup footage with the puppet (I don't know how much of the 90s period survives or circulates anywhere), it would definitely work. Without it, it's still footnotey (especially since we can't really confirm it directly).
I may break out Little Britain later (not keen on the show and there's nothing visual, but four bullets under two versions of the show, and one just a US remake of an earlier bit, so it would read better all together.)
Cash Cab is also on my list thanks to, of all things, a Moishe Oofnik PSA where he mocks the host of the Israeli version ("I didn't call a cab").
I've broken out or relocated a few more entries. Plus recent additions, the current total is 160 (so down 59 from the starting post). I was ready to break out Cash Cab, but noticed no date was given.
A note on All That: IMDb claimed Jim Henson's Creature Shop was credited for puppets on two episodes. I checked, they were not (Wikipedia goes further and claims they built the puppet shown on the page, which as an all purpose faux-Muppet critter, is pretty dubious). No mention of the series in any of Henson's credit lists in current or archived Creature Shop page. Just in case anyone adds the claim.
Also, several of these are just episode titles: Ben 10, Bunsen Is a Beast, The Odd Squad, Once Upon a Time, and Sam & Cat (a few, like Supernatural, combine an episode title reference and a verbal, so that helps). Doesn't seem like enough to break out yet, but only one has a connections list (maybe some could be added, but) and there's not much we can do with these as entries. Screen grabs of the title cards (when included on-screen, which isn't always, but definitely applies to the cartoon and kids shows) could illustrate them. A thought I've had is maybe approach it like Minor Comics Mentions. Create a gallery (top or bottom?) of the title cards, with the show titles, since that's really the only relevant info in these cases (maybe season and episode specifications). That or just a list, under a heading such as "Title references" separate from the alphabetical index (if shows still in production add another mention, they can be broken out again). Thoughts?
That would help, thanks! Just checking IMDb, several other shows had variations on "Being Green" in the title. Some we've already covered, but for others, title card is definitely a good approach (the main exceptions, for not showing an episode title on-screen, tend to be sitcoms, soaps, and reality shows).
Gallery started. I put at the top, before the alphabetical index. I'm sure the gallery specs may need tweaking, and if anyone wants to play with how I laid it out, feel free. We lose those few connection names but I don't think they added much under the circs. We gain a more readable way to view the information (I specified season and episode numbers to make them findable for the curious).
It will look better once we can fill in that Once Upon a Time placeholder.
And number check, *with* the "Episode titles" entry (or should that be "Episode title references?" I figured shortest worked best), we're at 154 total. Definitely more readable and scrollable.
Just some info parking. I removed Cash Cab. There's an Israeli Sesame PSA which parodies the local version, so it may get a page eventually. But as a mention, there's no date, the show's not verifiable or watchable online, and the contributor (who I left a message with) hasn't been here in over a year.
Here's the text for the record.
"In one episode, a Red Light Challenge topic was to name the six Sesame Street Muppets that had appeared on the show since its start in 1969. The contestants win the challenge. (The episode mistakenly listed Mr. Snuffleupagus, who first appeared in 1971.)"
More parking. Samurai Pizza Cats dated to 2007, but it was added based on the memories of a Muppet Central user. Unlike Cash Cab, the show circulates so a serious fan could probably find the episode, give a title, and confirm the quote. But right now, it's really just a leftover from the earliest form of the page.
Here's the text:
"* On Saban's English dub of Kyatto Ninden Teyandee, an episode features a giant Buddha statue that has a bird's face. One of the characters remarks, "A Big Bird? Go back to public television! We don't want your kind here!"
Looking at some more pending breakouts, I noticed the entry for The Soup.
"During the John Henson (no relation) era (mid to late 90s), a recurring character called McDermott the Frog was used, which was simply a commercially available Kermit puppet."
This was started in 2006 by Shawn, who counts as a reliable contributor for the claim, but there's no other way to verify or find visual evidence of the Kermit puppet being used (or even the spelling, which was changed from Shawn's MacDermot to McDermott by Danny; though apparently a Talk Soup producer had the last name McDermott and odds are it was a reference).
Right now, my thought would be to merge this on to E!, since there's no exact date and, 12 years later, it seems unlikely we'll find any footage without any more specific info. Another merge option would be The Soup, but while it's a reworked version on the same network, it's not the same show, so I'm a little hesitant. Thoughts?
Talk Soup and The Soup were both produced by Stan Evans if you're looking for more of a reason to include both on the same page. I'm pretty sure we have other articles where we cover more than one version of a show together, although I can't think of a good example right now.
Yeah, I'm now leaning towards a merge into The Soup (it's more altered concept than straight forward update with name kept or international export, which is what we've dealt with before, but a direct predecessor, so we can note that in text).
The ALF verbal helps a little, since we can likely pin down a date for that one. (Full line: "And I wouldn't want to disappoint the kids cuz they'd have to yell "Hey, you're not Elmo" at someone else. Yeah, tickle this!") But merge still looks like the best option. I'll work on it later.
So, let's see where we are now. This actually got so long I considered a new thread, but wanted to refer to some of the prior conclusions, so just tacking on.
Compared to over 200 entries in June 2018, at this writing the page is at 144. It usually hovers around 150, due to additions from new shows (several this season seem to be going the "Sesame Street is on"-type dialogue route) and obscure older finds doing the same (I'm still running across those).
After some more breaking out today, some things to look at. First, I did another yank pending confirmable info for The President Show. Nick added it with "early November 2017" instead of an episode title or exact date. Only one episode, the last one, aired in November, on the 2nd. That's assuming Nick saw it when it first aired (and not a later date, if he saw it on Canadian TV). It's not a show that attracted people to transcribe it, and it's not on DVD. So I'm parking it here:
"* In an episode from early November 2017, Donald Trump (Anthony Atamanuik) refers to George Papadopoulos as George Snuffleupagus."
As we keep saying, please be sure to source and confirm entries; sometimes other editors can figure it out later but for short-lived shows with no rerun or home video life, some things can't be verified). Also, when shows have actual episode titles (on-screen or off), use episode titles and not "episode 116" which means little for outside shows (as opposed to Sesame Street or The Muppet Show where we have actual pages to give the date and context) especially since some use production codes and some air date numbering (which as we've found in our own guiding can get complicated).
Now, keeping around 150 entries is actually pretty darn good considering. But now with most of the strays (significant image or three verbals) out of the way, we can look at what remains.
There's Scott's criteria adjustment above which has been mostly overlooked: "Two verbal mentions plus ten or more connections" get a breakout. I haven't done some of that myself just because I like to see if I can find a screengrab of the verbal caption so there's a thumbnail for classic categories view/exhibition, but that's just a preference. These all meet the criteria, although some have beefier mention text than others, and several are available on DVD or streaming if anyone does want to add a caption grab:
Everybody Loves Raymond
Just Shoot Me!
The New Adventures of Old Christine
WKRP in Cincinnati
After that we can again look at splitting up by type (several of the animated titles were just broken out, plus I'm actually thinking we might as well merge in those from Minor Movie Mentions as there's not much difference between a verbal Fozzie in Bee Movie and a verbal Kermit in the special Monsters vs. Aliens: Mutant Pumpkins from Outer Space). I may just start with the oft-discussed "Minor Non-Scripted TV Mentions" instead, which are often the weakest entries.
Two final reminders which have been mentioned before: When adding a new series, a brief bit of contextual text ("2001 drama on CBS," "2019 sketch comedy") can help for shows that may not have an afterlife or last beyond a season or two and where the title isn't self-explanatory (Drew Carey's Green Screen Show pretty much covers it, but some of the others are vague or multiple series had the same title so we have no idea what's being talked about). And when adding connections, try to add character names and not "so and so's rival" unless that was the actual credit/dialogue designation, just to make it easier again.
I've updated the article with a full quote, after skimming through four hours of the "Late Nite Last Week" podcast, where I heard it. It's in an episode that covered programs aired between October 29 and November 4, and the clip is at 59:04 to 59:52.