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  • Aleal
    Aleal closed this thread because:
    old arguments and disruption
    01:30, July 28, 2020

    I changed the performer box info to "various" because that sort of thing has worked well for other characters that went through tons of performer changes like the Two-Headed Monster. It's also a great to address the concerns of the infobox looking too messy and cluttered.

    Also, Peter Linz has performed Statler in enough projects to be declared as his new official performer anyway.

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    • The clutter has gotten a bit much, I would agree. But you should've brought this up in the first place instead of changing it on your own. We have these discussions for a reason.

      I think a fine compromise would be listing Jim and Richard, then a "various" linking to the history of the performers. But others should definitely weigh in.

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    • Oscarfan wrote: The clutter has gotten a bit much, I would agree. But you should've brought this up in the first place instead of changing it on your own. We have these discussions for a reason.

      I think a fine compromise would be listing Jim and Richard, then a "various" linking to the history of the performers. But others should definitely weigh in.

      The only compromise would be to list only the "various", just like with the Two-Headed Monster and other such characters.

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    • There is never only one compromise. What is done will be based on consensus, not what a single user wants.

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    • Duke Remington wrote: The only compromise would be to list only the "various", just like with the Two-Headed Monster and other such characters.

      The Wiki is a community project, not an "I vs. everyone else" project. That is why we have forums and discussions.

      I forgot we had discussed this prior, as spearheaded by yourself, and you acted just as immovable. If you cannot be a team player, perhaps the Wiki is not the best outlet for you.

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    • I really hope we can come to some sort of consensus here on all this.

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    • If I may make a suggestion, what would anyone think if we put Statler and Waldorf's performers + "more..." in their own separate character infoboxes? As I would like to demonstrate below...

      (Or would it just create editor "clutter?")

      (EDIT: Okay, I set <font style="font-size:14px; color:black"> for the names at top of each infobox, but they did not translate to the post, although they work fine in Preview. Nuts...)


      StatlerWaldorf
      Waldorf's on the left, Statler's on the right.
      DEBUT 1975
      DESIGN Bonnie Erickson designer/builder
      Statler
      PERFORMER Richard Hunt 1976-1991
        Jerry Nelson 1975, 1992-2003
        Steve Whitmire 2002-2016
        Peter Linz 2017-present
        more...
      Waldorf
      PERFORMER Jim Henson 1975-1990
        Dave Goelz 1992-present
        more...
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    • I like Jesse's idea.

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    • Antsamthompson9 wrote: I like Jesse's idea.

      Me too.

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    • At this point, it's worth going back and deciding, as a community, what the primary goal in changing the performer box on Statler and Waldorf is. It's definitely not a situation like Two Headed Monster where "various" and not including even the originators makes sense.

      If it's to be as inclusive as possible, Jesse's suggestion does that but doesn't actually help with clutter at all since it's *three* boxes. The separation does make it more readable but otherwise the only change from the present one are adding two "mores" rather than one and Peter Linz.

      For myself, I'd vote in favor of either the original performers Hunt and Henson (or conceivably original and current performers, so that would just omit Nelson and Whitmire, even though Whitmire's tenure lasted longest, but we've made similar decisions regarding Janice, for example) and "more" or leaving as is now.

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    • Andrew's right; boxes just move the clutter, they don't take away from it.

      I think having Henson and Hunt, with "more," is a perfectly cromulent solution.

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    • Points gladly taken. If it's about "trimming," I agree Hunt/Henson/more... would work fine.

      However, if that's the route we go down, might I at least recommend keeping Goelz in the box, since while Statler is the central source of the clutter with his three (if we're counting Linz) post-Hunt performers, Goelz has been consistently doing Waldorf for nearly 30 years now.

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    • Personally, I'd be fine with either Hunt/Henson/More or Hunt/Henson and Goelz/More (whatever we do, I don't see a lot of benefit to two "more" lists, since they can all be found in the same casting history).

      As noted, Goelz's tenure has spanned every Statler recast to date (with the exception of temporary fill-ins and From the Balcony/cruise ship funkiness) and it would still make for a simple box.

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    • Hunt/Henson/Goelz/more sounds appropriate, and it gives the Goelz his props for sticking it out as Waldorf for so long.

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    • Yeah, I can live with that.

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    • Perhaps it would be best to leave the info box as is and just add Peter Linz to it, since Peter has done Statler enough times already since 2017.

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    • This is so convoluted, there's really no perfect way to keep it from getting cluttered.

      My recommendation is that we just do Jim and Richard (don't even include dates) because they established the characters and have a link to "more".

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    • Aleal wrote: At this point, it's worth going back and deciding, as a community, what the primary goal in changing the performer box on Statler and Waldorf is. It's definitely not a situation like Two Headed Monster where "various" and not including even the originators makes sense.

      If it's to be as inclusive as possible, Jesse's suggestion does that but doesn't actually help with clutter at all since it's *three* boxes. The separation does make it more readable but otherwise the only change from the present one are adding two "mores" rather than one and Peter Linz.

      For myself, I'd vote in favor of either the original performers Hunt and Henson (or conceivably original and current performers, so that would just omit Nelson and Whitmire, even though Whitmire's tenure lasted longest, but we've made similar decisions regarding Janice, for example) and "more" or leaving as is now.

      I still feel like the “various” is really the only option at this point. Characters like the Two-Headed Monster don’t list their originators. And Jerry is really the true originator of Statler and not Richard anyway.

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    • Scarecroe wrote: This is so convoluted, there's really no perfect way to keep it from getting cluttered.

      My recommendation is that we just do Jim and Richard (don't even include dates) because they established the characters and have a link to "more".

      I still feel the best recommendation is to change it to “various”, just like with the Two-Headed Monster and other such characters that constantly went through performers.

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    • I have a question, should we put in in trivia that Dave Goelz looped a line for Jim Henson’s Waldorf in Muppet Vision 3-D during the fireworks sequence?

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    • I thought of another idea: how about we create a separate page for Statler and a separate page for Waldorf, like how Ernie and Bert each have their own separate pages and how The Muppets Character Encyclopedia gave Statler a page to himself and Waldorf a page himself?

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    • Because Ernie and Bert have definable traits that distinguish them from the other, and they make plenty of appearances without the other.

      Statler and Waldorf do not. They're almost never seen without the other, and what is there really to say about them individually? "Waldorf has a wife that looks like Statler." That's pretty much it.

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    • Since coming to a consensus has been difficult, when will it be okay to update the infobox to add Peter Linz as Statler's performer?

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    • I understand not getting your way can be frustrating, but a decision hasn't been made yet.

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    • The rest of us have been discussing how best to adjust the performer box in general. If your only interest is adding Peter Linz to the box, I'm afraid you probably have a long wait (indeed, from previous responses, the closest to a consensus is Hunt/Henson and a link to the casting history). For most of us, this isn't an urgent priority and doing it right is more important than doing it right now.

      Statler and Waldorf is still locked because of your behavior, but once it's unlocked, if you try to make the changes you want to the performer box or split the page etc. without consensus, you will be blocked. You haven't even brought up a simpler change, if as it seems your real interest in this topic is Peter Linz: updating the casting history (which doesn't affect the overall look of the page and isn't one of the first things readers see) to put Linz as primary (while he's mostly just done commercials and guest spots so far, he was in the live events, and it's been consistent for two years, so that seems to trump say Drew Massey's fill in). That you might get a consensus on, but you still shouldn't make any change on your own without one.

      At this point though, you're probably better off focusing your energy elsewhere. Prior to your suggestion of two pages, which would complicate things rather than simplifying, you just kept insisting what you wanted was the only option, which is not what compromise is and one person's wants do not equal consensus. I hope this has at least shown how the community decides things. Working with others (which does not include ignoring admins, edit warring, etc.) is important, but sometimes one has to accept that the majority may not have the same desires as you do (it happens at some point to all of us).

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    • I am patiently waiting for a response to my question about putting in trivia that Dave Goelz looped a line for Jim Henson’s Waldorf in Muppet Vision 3-D during the fireworks sequence of the attraction.

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    • Is this confirmable anywhere (i.e can you link to audio or video?) We generally don't note one-line looping on a character page (we might on the production or performer's page). But if it's Dave Goelz's earliest known recorded performance, we might work it into the casting history.

      Sorry for delayed response, but you brought it up in a thread already focused on a different matter (next time, a new thread would be better, since it's a different issue and question), and also right at the holidays, so many of us are pre-occupied and only occasionally on Muppet Wiki.

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    • The Dave Goelz thing is derived from this ToughPigs article. The exact quote is this:

      You may not know this about the show: There’s one Waldorf line in MuppetVision 3D that wasn’t Jim’s voice. Towards the end, Statler shouts: “Oooh! Aaah! OOOO!!” Waldorf asks, “Enjoying the fireworks?” Statler’s response: “No, your chair is on my foot!” That joke was apparently added after Jim passed away. I can’t guarantee this is the right credit, but it sounds a lot like the new Waldorf voice, Dave Goelz.
      The writer merely suggests that it was Dave, but judging from the audio, it doesn't sound like his Waldorf at all. Just a Henson soundalike.
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    • Antsamthompson9
      Antsamthompson9 removed this reply because:
      Got another way to present the question.
      01:28, July 28, 2020
      This reply has been removed
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