Muppet Wiki

Context and Edit Summaries

Hi, Anthony! Just a reminder, read edit summaries before you redo something which an admin has changed (ala Rob Tygner). Not every "puppet coordinator" credit, especially for Creature Shop stuff which works differently and more often involves body movement or pantomime stuff for suit performers, falls with what's defined on Puppet captain. Please check context (I'd had to unlink some of yours in connections, because that's not how we handle those, and "puppet consultant," even though Kevin Clash once had "Senior Muppet Consultant" as a variation of his Puppet Captain credit, often means "consulted on Muppets.") Check the production context and the actual definitions used on the article before you link a phrase just through Googling (plus a lot of those "puppet coordinator" phrases on Creature Shop performer articles aren't even in credits, just added by performers as a way to elaborate on their duties, so outside of correspondence there's no way to even interpret those fully).

Also, advance reminder. Place names likewise need to be contextualized. I'm planning an article on Nashville the location at some point, but that does not mean every reference to the TV show Nashville should be linked (just if it's about an actual event there). Thanks! -- Andrew Emoji-drool.gifAdminsig.png 18:49, 5 December 2020 (UTC)


Hi, welcome to Muppet Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the User:Antsamthompson9 page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- H rytter (Talk) 18:59, 6 April 2010

"first" in the song box

Hey man, regarding [1] and [2], I can't remember where we talked about the rules for when to use that and when not to. β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 15:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

If a song originated in a street story, I don't think a "First" should go in the song box. β€”Anthony (talk 23:29, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I meant where was it that we talked about the rules for when to use that and when not to. β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 00:23, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Ant, are you removing firsts from songboxes because we discussed it somewhere as a policy (which I can't recall either), or are you doing it at your own preference? If it's the latter, then why? β€” Jon latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 00:39, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
That might been me setting precedent for myself. If we want to have a bigger discussion about it, I'm down. - Shane latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 03:18, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Cool, I'll open up a forum thread about it. I just couldn't rememeber where we decided how we wanted that field to work.
By the way, Anthony, thanks for fixing my atrocious spelling lately. Spell check hasn't been working in Firefox for some reason. β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 13:33, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Ant, please wait until we've come to a consensus about this on the forum before making similar changes. β€” Jon latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 13:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

There's one right here. It could definitely use more discussion. β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 13:35, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

i.e. vs e.g.

Hey man, thanks for all the i.e. vs e.g. fixes. I think a lot of those were me Emoji-concern.gif β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 11:55, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

No problem. Do you think you could change the link to Production order vs. Broadcast order page on the Muppet show episode category page to the List of The Muppet Show episodes page? Since all the info for that migrated over there. User:Antsamthompson9 22:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
I added the link when I migrated the info. β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 00:25, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
It just seems odd that Category:Muppet Show Episodes links to the Production order vs. Broadcast order page when all the info can be found another page. User:Antsamthompson9 05:03, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Ah, why didn't you say so? I just updated the link. Also, don't forget to sign your talk page posts with four tildes, just like it says in red at the top of the talk page edit form. Thanks! β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 12:15, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

removing sources

Why did you unlink hundreds of sources pointing to a forum thread? β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 10:02, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Andrew said that all the links to threads have become redlinks after the move to UPC and it fills up Special:WantedPages. So I thought I would help him by getting rid of those links so, it'd be easier for him and anyone else who wants to make pages for redlinks. β€”Anthony 10:14, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Where was this? β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 10:16, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Forum:Bug smashing efforts β€”Anthony 10:19, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
We were reporting that as a bug. Meaning, it should be left alone so it came be fixed properly. I appreciate the attempt at clean-up, but it lessened the quality of the source cited and created an awful lot of counter clean-up. Please don't embark on sweeping changes like that without discussing it with the community first. β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 10:27, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Tonight Show links

Hey man, nice job with the Tonight Show links. I was going tackle them today as it got late for me last night. So, thanks! β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 11:05, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

My pleasure. β€”Anthony 21:20, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Segment pages

I just wanted to say thank you for all those links you've added to the SS segment pages recently; I know it couldn't have been easy. -- Tony (talk) 12:16, 22 September 2021 (UTC)


Hi, Ant! Just a reminder, we don't create categories until there's more than one item to go there. So a Halloween specials category will make sense when there's more than one. If you want to argue for renaming Category:Halloween Episodes to "Halloween Productions" (we did that some time ago with Category:Christmas Productions), feel free to start a forum. But creating a new category for one entry doesn't actually help anyone to find the article. You're also better off using the forum or discussing it on a talk page than edit summaries when you're just stating an opinion or organizational tip not related to your actual edit. Thanks for keeping that in mind along with all the good work you do. -- Andrew Emoji-drool.gifAdminsig.png 05:11, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi again, Ant. Once again, edit summaries should be related to your actual edit. If you have a question like here which isn't even about the article you're editing, start a forum thread or ask the admin who protected or, honestly, just wait until the premiere date (since between now and then, those pages still tend to attract bad edits from driveby users). You do so much good work and we appreciate it, but you're not communicating properly by trying to use edit summaries as wall pages or forums (and odds are most users won't even notice it, making it wasted effort on your part). Please leave a response so I know you understand, and make sure from now on that you only use an edit summary to explain your actual edit. Thanks. -- Andrew Emoji-drool.gifAdminsig.png 01:26, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
I understand. From now on, I will save questions for the forum or user talk pages. -- Anthony 01:36, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Indented paragraphs

Your latest change doesn't look right.

I couldn't figure it out either. Compare mobile view and desktop view.

Also, images are placed with the paragraph they refer to. It may look okay in desktop view, but not in mobile view. Images should also be indented with the indented (bulleted) paragraph they belong to; this doesn't matter in desktop mode, but it displays wrongly as a new separate "paragraph" (not indented and not bulleted) in mobile view.

There's a better way to do this; we'll have to figure it out... Cotswold (talk) 10:21, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Cotswold, please don't indent galleries. As Ant noted, it's not the proper formatting. Part of the problem you're seeing may stem from the fact that you're editing on mobile. Unfortunately, that layout doesn't work very well; we advise that you direct your mobile browser to request the desktop version of the page. β€”Scott latest?cb=20200820192427 (talk) 11:12, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
@Scarecroe, That's not a solution, to say don't look at the mobile site.
And the issue Ant and I are discussing is not galleries (I assume you mean a set of images?). The issue is paragraphing; text or whatever. When delineating subsections by bulleting (something that occurs frequently on muppet.fandom I notice) and a section has multiple paragraphs, all paragraphs after the first one are un-bulleted. Bulleting indents. A new paragraph outdents. This applies to both desktop and mobile view. I'm sure there's a way to solve it. If you know how, please tell us.
Using : to indent manually does work, but the indent is not by the same amount as * gives.
Cotswold (talk) 12:52, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Going live

Hi, Ant, I know you're always eager to take things out of upcoming, but remember, that 1) streaming things on HBO Max don't go live until at earliest midnight *Pacific* time generally but there's also sometimes delays and 2) Disney+ doesn't actually add things even at midnight (usually a gap of several hours, as confirmed by users repeatedly staying up trying to catch a new addition). Even the recent changes show it's not November 25th PT yet. So it generally works best not to change the pages until you've confirmed it's actually there on the site. Please keep this in mind in the future (if you're worried, don't worry, it will get updated in time). You do so much good work, but it's honestly better to wait than to say something has aired or is online when it hasn't. It's not like when merchandise goes on sale. Thanks! -- Andrew Emoji-drool.gifAdminsig.png 05:22, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Voices and edit warring

Hi, Ant. As we've said before, we appreciate all you do, but you periodically forget about Muppet Wiki:Communication (after a page has been unprotected due to edit warring, reinserting an edit is *still* edit warring) and the basic rule of talking to admins. I brought this up back in October and November messages above. Also, re-read Muppet Wiki:Sources. However much we trust them, copying a change made and removed by another editor is not a source. You reinstated a claim added in January and later removed due to edit warring with the same user involved in the [{Stephanie D'Abruzzo characters]] issue, and if you looked through the history to confirm that Tony added the cat claim, you should have also seen this edit summary. To repeat what I typed there, "no credits or script to confirm who's who, but those with more distinct speaking parts beyond sounds or one words might be readded later by an established user or with discussion." It's incredibly difficult and not always wise to try to ID when characters just yell in a crowd or utter animal sounds. (In this case, meaning an established user directly making the case, not someone readding because an established user wrote it months ago). You didn't even ask Tony about it (which again is a reason for forums; it's also possible he had sources beyond his ear, which would need to be cited). You ignored Jon's message before protecting the page that a citable source or at least a voice comparison would be needed to re-add the info. This goes down to a very old statement in our FAQ, Why was my edit removed?, stating to leave a message for the editor and not to engage in edit warring. For voices specifically, the procedure is already outlined on Muppet Wiki:Identifying Voices that we avoid guesses and ask for consensus when unsure, and this especially applies to single lines, words, or animal sounds.

You do great work, Ant, but you still need to work on proper communication and using forums correctly (to get consensus or ask for more info, not to let personal preferences or opinions on an admin's revert get in the way). This is said with appreciation for your value as an editor, but please avoid falling into the same traps as users we have to protect pages against and end up blocking for non communication. Basically, don't let your enthusiasm or getting caught in a moment let you forget the way Muppet Wiki handles things or edit in a way that ignores actions by admins. Communicate first on user pages or forums, and only then if others agree with you or accept your direct sources (not because another user thought so), can you reinsert. Thank you! (And yes, we need a reply so we know you understand). -- Andrew Emoji-drool.gifAdminsig.png 16:41, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

For the EW info, I was using a YouTube copy of the segment here (YouTube), and Vogel does have dialogue as the turtle. ("Come back here, rabbit!") The cat and dog sing along with Elmo at the beginning of the "Pets" song, before the rest of the crowd joins in, so their performers are easier to sort out. Joey can be heard as the parrot at the very beginning of the segment, comparing it to other performances he's done such as in Episode 3839 and Episode 3582. -- Tony (talk) 17:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
OK, I promise to be more careful when it comes to things like this. Now that Tony has explained his source for the performers in EW: Pets, can the note about additional performers be added back to the page? -- Anthony 00:05, 17, April 2022 (UTC)
No. Re-read my message and re-read Muppet Wiki:Identifying Voices and the messages Jon and I left in edit summaries. It needs a *consensus*. To get that, you need a forum discussion, time for others to listen (Tony didn't give an actual source, just his opinion, which may be correct but others need) and the fact that the whole area of animal voices for that episode has been attracting edit wars. In part from dealing with this as well as my own work and home responsibilities, I haven't even had time to listen to determine how clearly the cat and dog singing shows specific performers. We've had similar discussions and concerns when people tried to pick out unclear background vocals or say definitively that a throwaway woof was Jerry Nelson. It might be simpler this time, but it still has to be an actual discussion on a forum and not just editor's opinions or statements on my talk page It would honestly be best if Tony started the thread (as you're just backing what he's typing). If enough other editors agree and there's a clear consensus, *then* it can be re-added. With that consensus, it would honestly be better if Tony or another user adds it, to avoid jumping the gun and given the edit warring you've already engaged in. Otherwise we'll just have to protect the page again until there's a forum consensus. -- Andrew Emoji-drool.gifAdminsig.png 01:01, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
Sounds fair to me. -- Tony (talk) 01:14, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
I started a thread for it: Forum:Identifying voices for performer pages. -- Tony (talk) 13:06, 17 April 2022 (UTC)